NABCEP?

[eeprom]

Does anyone know anything about NABCEP? It seems that there are quite a few public bids out there which require NABCEP certification for doing any type of PV installation. And NABCEP states that it requires 2 years PV experience in order that a person would even be eligible for certification. This effectively closes the PV industry to new players. Does anyone know anything about this? Are these guys a government agency? Can a "public" bid be limited to people belonging to a single organization?

thanks

 

[berkshire]

From the NABCEP website.
"NABCEP certification is not a professional license issued by a government agency, and does not authorize a certificant to practice. NABCEP certificants must comply with all legal requirements related to practice, including licensing laws."
B.E.

 

[IRstuff]

Is that fundamentally any different than requiring ISO or CMMI certification?

I guess I don't see limiting bidders to experienced installers as being a bad thing. Prior experience is often a critical part of any bidder's proposal package.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[eeprom]

I don't see limiting installers to experience either. But being able to demonstrate competency and being a registered member of NABCEP are not the same. This particular "system" of certification is blocking bidders on projects which are being funded with public money. According to NABCEP, there are only six people in my state who are qualified to bid on these projects. So, these "public" bids are only open to a handful of people. I can see if a private company bids a project, they can ask for anything they want. But a public bid requiring membership in a specific organization is no different from forcing union membership as a bidding requirement.

 

[IRstuff]

If your company already has experience, why can't you get certified?

We have, as I posted earlier, government contracts requiring ISO and CMMI cerification, both of which are private and non-governmental, so I fail to see the difference. If this is an important business segment, then it's not any different than paying for copies of the codes and regulations that you need to adhere to.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[eeprom]

NABCEP requires that candidates for membership must have done at least 2 PV installations in the past 2 years. So, "why shouldn't they require some experience?" Because a lack of experience is not an indication of incompetence. These are photovoltaic systems, not hydroelectric plants. Homeowners can buy these systems for their rooftop. But more importantly, please consider how this requirement financially favors those already members of NABCEP. The field is sort of closed to new players. And it is also worth stating that these requirements are less than a year old.

 

[IRstuff]

"Because a lack of experience is not an indication of incompetence"

I don't disagree, but I didn't say it was. But, given the fly-by-night nature of such industries, a 2-year track record is a substantial plus over someone who can't show a similar track record.

Why would I give a contract to someone who's never done anything like that before, over someone that's been active in doing the exact thing that I'm asking for?

Frankly, I have to wonder about your company's commitment to doing business in this arena, since you've already known about the requirement for a year, but have apparently done nothing to get certified. Seems to me, that's like someone claiming that it's unfair that a realtor's license is required before you sell a house.

Where the license or certification comes from is completely irrelevant; that's just a red herring. Your customer base has added a new requirement, and your company apparently just doesn't want to play ball, get complains about the referee being unfair.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[eeprom]

You have a keen insight.

 

[dpc]

Reminds me of the LEED certification. Just someone's way of making money.

 

[mauricestoker]

Being a gubmint worker, I can see both sides of the argument. The gubmint cannot use absence of specific historic experience as an adverse rating factor, but can require certification, which may be based on relevant experience. I would not want to unnecessarily limit bidding as that is not in the gubmint's best interest and runs contrary to the FAR (every effort should be made to reasonably maximize competition) but this is a contracting decision, not an enegineering decision. I tend to not argue with the contracting officer, as if I want a contract out the door and they have a wild hair, guess who will lose.

The same approach is used for TAB and commissioning; competitive contract cannot use absence of specific relevant past experience, but can require NEBB or TAB certification, which requires relevant experience.

If the agency issuing the contract has a competition advocate, you might address it that way, but ultimately, the Contracting Officer has authority over deciding whether a requirement unneccessarily limits competition. I would say that if the requirement is already in the contract, then you need to meet the requirement or not be considered.

 

[JLSeagull]

I had not previously heard of the North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) or such certification.

Checking the Texas listings for Approved Providers I see Austin Communitee College and the Austin Joint Apprenticeship and Training Committee. I don't want to slam these institutions. However, I would be satisfied if a project designed by a registered electrical engineer and installed by a licensed electrician provided that they had some exposure to a previous solar power project.

Checking the list for certified installers in Texas I find 29 in Austin, 2 each in El Paso, Frisco, Houston, Plano; 1 in Bonham, Dallas, Del Valle, Georgetown, Leander, Lindale, New Boston, Paige, Spring Branch and Tyler.

Perhaps this covers all of the solar photovoltaic and thermal installers within the state of Texas; or perhaps not. Requiring certification by the NABCEP seems lame if not bogus.

 

[eeprom]

Why would it matter that an installer had experience? By using experience as a limiter, then the field is effectively closed to new business. But, more importantly, a solar array is a truly simple installation. To illustrate this, consider that there are hundreds of solar packages out there intended to be installed by homeowners. If a package can be installed by a homeowner (who is not required to have experience or technical skills), then don't you think a PE could do a satisfactory installation?

I'm sure you can understand that there are more than 35 people in the entire state of TX who can install a solar array.

NABCEP is a means of controlling the market. Just think if you could come up with an organization which required that books could only be written by people who have written books. And writing a book is a lot more challenging that installing a solar array.

 

[IRstuff]

There is nothing the acquisition regulations that force the government to accept ALL proposals. Invariably, the government is allowed to only accept proposals from qualified suppliers. If I were the procurement authority, I definitely wouldn't want to waste my time on wannabe suppliers and would want qualified, solid suppliers with good track records to ensure that any installtion problems or maintenance problems would be dealt with in a timely and professional manner. If someone can certify that a set of suppliers are qualified, that just makes the overall taks easier to accomplish.

And while installation might be relatively simple, I would not entertain a proposal from my neighbor who can barely tell which end of a screwdriver to use, would I? I'd want someone that I can trust to do a good job, someone whose previous clients can attest to a competent job, etc. It's certainly not my job, nor that of the government's to pay someone to do on the job training at my expense.



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[eeprom]

So, you wouldn't trust your neighbor, even if he had a PE in electrical engineering? and had 20 years' experience in power generation and industrial controls?

 

[davidbeach]

I wish that government agencies were a whole lot less willing to take on inexperienced contractors. Best value for the money is not the cheapest bid by somebody who doesn't know what they are doing, but merely thinks they do. Far better to pay a bit more and get a much better product with a longer life span than go for lowest first cost.

 

[IRstuff]

If I were concerned about long-term support and the ability to go back years later to get more work done, then no. Being a PE just means that he studied the study guides and passed a written exam. His experience in power generation and whatnot may, or may not, have direct bearing on the job at hand. Since I wouldn't be qualified to make that judgement, I'd definitely defer to someone who is ostensibly authorative on that subject.

Additionally, his willingness to do a good job and stay in business is something entirely different. He may decide a week after install that the business isn't fun, or profitable, or whatever, and go back to doing industrial controls.

It's not a whole lot different than getting work done on your car. You wouldn't necessarily go to the first tech school graduate or even someone who's worked for years on diesel engines to work on your particular engine. You would go to someone with a good reputation, which you might find out by asking other people for a recommendation, which is an informal certification).

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[eeprom]

People used to make these same arguments about unions. The assumption being that anyone in the union will do a better job than anyone not in the union. You can make all the assumptions you want about inexperienced versus experienced, but you are guessing. So what if the lowest cost comes from an experienced contractor? Why assume that the inexperienced person would bid less? -- because you are assuming that they don't know what they are doing, and you are guessing. Do you simply pick the middle bidder every time?

I am not making any assumptions about anyone with or without NABCEP certification. And you probably shouldn't either. My argument is this:

1. By only allowing experienced installers to be eligible for certification, NABCEP has closed the door to new installers.
2. If the government requires NABCEP certification for public projects, then the government is effectively limiting public bids to members of a single organization. They may as well be hiring faith-based installers.
3. Any journeyman electrician who has done any industrial work is most likely capable of performing a satisfactory photovoltaic installation.

 

[eeprom]

Again, many assumptions.

 

[IRstuff]

A union rarely certify compency or experience. Just because you're member of UAW doesn't even mean you can fix a car, much less recognize what an EGR valve looks like.

Every process is an assumption, so that argument is moot. Even a company that has a good track record has, or can assign to your contract, their bench team. As all stock avisories tell you "past performance is not an indication for future performance." Yet, that's better than nothing. People have won bids on excellent proposals, yet, crashed and burned on execution, because the execution team wasn't the proposal team, for one.

The lower bid is rarely correct or accurate. In fact, many of our customers automatically throw out the lowest and highest bids without any other evaluation, since it's pretty much a given everyone is underbidding to start with,

1. Your assertion is different that what your previous posts state. The customer has imposed NABCEP, so they're doing the restricting. NABCEP appears to be simply doing a good lobbying effort and doesn't appear to have any specific powers beyond issuing certs.

2. So? How is that different than imposing ISO certification? Surely, you aren't arguing that you shouldn't be demanded to have ISO cert as well? You'd even have better argument about that, since ISO promises nothing at all about experience or compence; it merely certs that an organization is following its own written procedures, whether the procedures correct, or efficient, or anything. In fact, ISO cert just barely guarantees that an organization appeared to be following their procedures during the certification period itself, which is only a couple of days, at the most.

3. That's your assumption. Just from experience, I can tell you that every specific job has unique constraints and issues that will not be apparent until you actually attempt to do the task. A solar installation is not just about the electricity, there are constraints on insolation, mechanical constraints, structural constraints, permits and negotiations with utilities, permits with the city, business license, etc., not one of which is in the purview of a typical industrial electrician. When does an electrician get training on what's a reasonable insolation to assume or promise? When does he get training on whether your roof needs structural reinforcement? Is he going to learn all of that on my job?

If this journeyman electrician promises 200 W/m^2 generation during daylight, is he believable? The answer is no, because, even on a clear day in Saudi Arabia, you can't even net more than about 115 W/m^2 for barely a couple of hours. So, unless he's spent time understanding a few weeks of research on insolation alone, he's barely better than someone off the street for that very critical bit of system performance.

Frankly, this is just not going to get your company anywhere, because certification requirements are increasing not decreasing. In my field, we started with self-cert to ASQ, now we're required to ISO cert. We started out with no certs on the process itself, then it went to SEI cert, and now CMMI cert. If we don't cert, we can't bid, so we get certs, and voila, we're in the race. What we do, day to day, is another matter altogether.

Likewise, I can tell you that being CMMI Level 5, which is the highest cert means diddly, since most companies don't realy follow their own processes and procedures anyway, and I've personally seen such organization produce stuff that we, as an un-certed organization, wouldn't have produced.

There will no doubt be future cert requirements that dictate that our process achieves some minimal level of requirements accuracy, once they figure out how to actually measure that with sufficient verisimilitude.

Bear in mind that I don't necessarily believe that NABCEP adds much value. Nonetheless, someone who's done 3 installations will have had to address those issues already, and will at least potentially have a reasonable basis to start my project, beyond just having read glossy brochures.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[eeprom]

I respect your point of view. Although you use too many imaginary people to support your argument.

Here's they key about certifications. Are they available to everyone? Can I get certified by ISO? Or are there insurmountable restrictions which cause me to be ineligible for registration with ISO? Now, let's take this one step further, applied to NABCEP. A year ago, NABCEP used to be open to anyone who could take the courses and pass the tests. A year ago, I would have been eligible. But, immediately after Obama got into office, NABCEP changed their requirements to mandate experience, and thereby put a pretty strict limit on eligibility.

I think that this was a political move made in an effort to control a market.