NDT Conundrum

[unclesyd]

I have a nagging conundrum with the ethics involved in some NDT work. Several weeks ago I told a friend that I would help him out during the inspection of the bottoms in two SS Tanks, one 20' dia butt welded and the other 30' lapped welded. I visited the work site and I know both tanks have leaking bottoms. I also know the material that is in these tanks isn't miscible with the currently used PT materials , the cleaner and the dye. He has gone through lengthily sessions with the owner in establishing a procedure to PT the bottom seams. The essentials of this procedure is to hand clean with PT cleaner, dab and wipe, dab and wipe, then apply the developer. This procedure will not work and will consume many manhours and cause an extended outage of each tank. All that needs to be done is clean the process material from the floor, the spray short sections of the bottom with PT developer and look for the ubiquitous wet spot. I tried to show him that the dye isn't miscible with product oil. He states that this procedure has been approved by both parties and will have to adhered to essentially verbatim. My problem is that this NDT supervisor has been a friend for long time and I know a lot of the people who own the tank and I know the problem with these tanks is SCC as I use to inspect similar tanks that held the product oil as we used to be partners in the process.
The biggest problem is that I got into the process too late. It is not only the NDT testing problem that bothers me is the amount of leakage showing on each tank. Due to amount of leakage from different areas my approach would be to get a tank company mobilized and on the road.


Anyone have any ideas how to approach this problem.

 

[hokie66]

unclesyd,

Unpleasant situation to be in, but you just have to make your thoughts known to all concerned. You won't be doing anyone a favor by staying quiet.

 

[jmw]

Unclesyd, I suspect that it isn't what to do that concerns you but how to do it. Not the ethics of it but how do you help your friend get it sorted without spoiling a friendship, or letting a bad situation get away from a good solution.

How do you tell someone they are doing something wrong?

People often don't say what they really want to say, they go at it another way round and you have to read between the lines.

Why did your friend ask for help? Is the reason he gave you realistic or perhaps he actually wants more from you.

Maybe your friend knows it's wrong but just hasn't got his head around the problem the right way and doesn't know quite how to say "Hey Unclesyd, when I asked for a hand I was really hoping you'd tell me what I'm doing wrong here, but if I come right out and ask you that you'll think I'm a pretty poor sort of engineer."

And it could depend on how receptive the friend is to new ideas.

Can you, for example, say something like:
"Heh, that's not bad Bud, but don't you find that there is this problem with that way of doing things? How about if you did it this way? Whadaya think?"

"I know what you're going to say, you're going to say that that would mean getting the tank company out on the road and I guess you're right but if what else can you do? I mean, you see that there is this problem and I don't how they can be let go like this, do you?(he can't say "hell, who'll know?" or anything like that.)
"Do you think you can sell the tank manufacturers on this way of doing things?" - can he say "No"?

In other words this is going to be a situation for leading questions and the art of suggestion; I'd guess you have to sell him the better solution the way a door to door salesman sells Encyclopedias - they use the Q&A routine where there is really only one answer you can give to each question... and then you feel compelled to answer the last question the same way....

It is partly about "face". But I'd guess that any friend of UncleSyd isn't going to be a complete butthead.....

PS if he doesn't know you as "UncleSyd", just bring up all the problems than suggest he post on Eng-Tips and then you can answer him like Maelzel (

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nepomuk_Mälzel)

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MikeHalloran]

The NDT supervisor can't very well say that the owners should replace the tank instead of continuing to pay his boss to test it to death.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[unclesyd]

I wholeheartedly agree with the above posts. Got to get the information out without hurting anybodies feelings save money on the job for the owner and keep the NDT company happy.

jmw,
I may have connected to the NDT supervisor as he called to see if I would be available tomorrow morning as he is bringing in his Level 3, recently minted and the one who wrote the procedures. I've also been told that he is a stickler for details, his, and doesn't like to deviate from the plan. This may be an additional problem.

MikeHalloran,
Your post hit the nail on head for this job as well as lot of others I've seen lately. If one owns a lot of equipment that requires inspection it would pay to have someone on site to monitor/control this type situation.

I would hope just to put in a new bottom as I believe the leak problem stems from SCC due to high chlorides in or on the concrete pad.


hokie66,
Getting the proper information to right people is on reason I didn't walk away.

 

[jmw]

So an early arrive to review and agree a strategy?
If this is a three way contest it could get sticky but if you and your friend are on the same page and can arrive at a strategy, one that "saves" face for the guy, then he will have no option but to change his details; one has to hope that he is only a stickler for defending good plans but open to change where the pans are not so good. 2 to 1 sounds like better odds.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[unclesyd]

Good news we are on the right track and all we like is the proverbial, "a little finishing up".

In reality I think I have the project back on track without hurting anyone's feelings or costing someone a lot money. The Level III that came over was as advertised a stickler for procedures and details. He has a military background. Over lunch I was able to convince him that PT was the most flexible of all the NDT processes. After some more discussion he agreed that there was a good chance the proposed procedure wouldn't work and he said that he would try it and if it didn't work he would be willing to change. They were able to clean the tank faster than I anticipated and they tried to check an area last night and there was no joy. Just got a call and was told that with using the sample of Vertial that I procured for cleaning they were getting results by just by cleaning and applying the Developer as I had suggested. One for the home team. We have a problem now of when to cut off the checking and make a recommendation for the disposition of the tank, I'll be on a conference call shortly.
The Level III has been a lot more open that I was lead to believe. During discussions I mentioned that we test the tank and then write the procedure to cover him in the paperwork. Evidently his training didn't cover anything other than the application of Cleaner, Dye, and Developer. He did tell the local NDT supervisor that he appreciated being brought up to speed.
Just got off the phone and we have completed the testing of the first tank. As I predicted all the cracking was in the floor with nothing on the the first ring verts. The floor will have to be replaced. They will button the tank up temporarily put in service and get the second one ready for inspection. The second one is worst the first based on the amount of leakage showing. This will enable to get repairs underway on the worst tank and have the material on site to immediately start on the other tank.
I'm to meet with the site management this Friday to assist them in getting someone to oversee their site as far as inspections and NDT are concerned. They are fortunate in they have mostly mechanical equipment with about 20 vessels. The kicker is that they have about 36 large Al silos.
Appreciate the comments and suggestions of all.

jmw,
At times I would like to defer to the old days where there would be pencil breaking and hard hat throwing and you could call a spade a spade if you could defend your self.

 

[hokie66]

unclesyd,

Well done! One for the senior set. I no longer carry a pencil around, as it is too tempting.

 

[ndeguy]

I have come to this interesting and very subtle thread late but I have to remark that it is refreshing to read that you, unclesyd are concerned with your friend's feelings AND what is best all round. Very laudable and I am happy it worked out well, dare I say because your friend was astute enough to enlist your help, probably with the full intention so cleverly realised by jmw.

My hat off to you guys!

And of course the warning to all who read here, applying penetrant to contaminated materials is a wasted effort.


Nigel Armstrong
Karachaganak Petroleum
Kazakhstan

 

[BigInch]

Glad you managed to work it out.

Save this for next time...

Its easier if you can get them to think its their idea. Say, "That could work, as long as its miscible, but I'm a little worried about what to do if its not. What's the backup plan?" Then in the most subtile manner you can, offer the solution, but be sure to let them select it.

If a compromise can't be reached, sell both plans to the tank owner, one primary, the other as the backup plan. Comes off as being well prepared, if nothing else.

"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization

 

[cedarbluffranch]

Can you talk the parties into performing a small scale test to see if the various solutions are feasible? For example, your concerned about the oil/dye compatibility. Can you (for low cost) create a test to see if in fact the oil/dye in incompatible?

That's how we do it at my company. Getting the right answer is important, it's not important as to who is right.

 

[unclesyd]

ndeguy, BigInch, cedarbluffranch,

Sorry not to get back to this thread as I had to spend a few days in the hospital for a cardioversion and get a stent in one of my pipes, can't complain the last time I had a problem was the 1992 bypass.

Both tanks are going to have their bottoms replaced this winter, more crews available. I am in the process of trying to put these tanks on grillage instead of felt. The concrete has high chlorides. This is similar to our site's SS tank pads. The process is essentially non-corrosive to SS so the tanks should last for many years on grillage.

 

[ndeguy]

unclesyd

Just read this today and I really hope the stent eases any physical difficulty so that you can make a wholeherated return to your obvious passion for engineering.

Good health.

Nigel Armstrong
Karachaganak Petroleum
Kazakhstan