Need advice from civil and structural PEs 2

[Iskit4iam]

I don't have a PE. In hindsight not getting one was a mistake but I really never thought I'd be anywhere else but in a corporate design world. I'm an ME. For the last 20 years I've been in management and specialized in equipment design, manufacturing and service.

I'm considering purchasing an engineering firm that specializes in small, mostly residential, structural and civil projects. There are three PEs and two young engineers that successfully passed the FE exam.

For a few years current owner would continue in the business on the technical side. The plan is for him to hang around long enough for me to get a PE, but after looking at an FE exam I figure it's 50/50 I can resurrect enough engineering brain cells to pass it and the PE exam. We both think the business would benefit from someone concentrating on management as his time is consumed with doing engineering.

Some other factors are:

My daughter is a year away from her degree in Civil and will definately get her PE and will probably eventually take over the firm.

I've managed PEs and other engineers with greater technical credentials than I have. My style is to work with the team to nail down the steps in the process and then manage by making sure the process is followed.

I will expand the scope of the firm into mechanical design using my knowledge and industry contacts.

So, my questions are:

"How would you react to this situation if you were one of the engineers on staff at the firm?"

"How do you think your customers would react in a similar situation?"

 

[plasgears]

I think informal lunch time coaching for you to pass the PE would be productive if you have the right motivation. It would stimulate everybody concerned. Work off the examples of old exams that took considerable time to solve each problem. The discussion would be practice using the language of math and engineering. The problem does not have to be solved completely. Just set up the problem to everybody's mutual satisfaction.

In the process of discussion you will discover the good analytical types and the organizational types. I did this with a flight training student, and he passed the written in the 90's.
PE and Certified Flight Instructor

 

[jsummerfield]

Study your state regulations carefully looking for an exemption to the fundamentals of engineering exam. Some states grant an exemption to the FE exam with your experience if approved by the board. Unlike a new grad, the Principles and Practices exam applies to the sort of work that you likely performed over the decades. Also, you can find review guides and classes specific to some of the P&P exams. Start the process to see if registration is an opportunity with the FE exemption.

John

 

[UcfSE]

I think you should try to get your PE if at all possible. From a young engineer's point of view, it is not fun at all to work for or under someone less qualified to do your job. It would show your new employees that you are respectable and concerned about being a good engineer and well qualified to be their boss. That's just my opinion, but it would make me feel good to work for you if you showed that kind of motivation and desire to stand up and be a leader. It sounds like a lot of work though.

 

[EddyC]

I recommend that you check your state laws regarding who is allowed to own, manage or operate a consulting engineering firm and what credentials they must have. In addition, check the state laws regarding whether you must take the FE exam to become a PE. After all, you seem to have been in engineering for a long time and probably accumulated a significant amount of design experience. As far as getting respect from your employees, you are well aware that very few corporate leaders are engineers. Anyhow, the farther you go up the managerial chain, the less you act like an engineer and the more you act like an accountant.

 

[born2drill]

I don't necessarily agree with UcfSE.

I'm not a PE (yet) but I'm an EIT on my way down that road. The guy I'm currently working for didn't get his EIT until he was in his late 30's. In that time - without any licensure - he rose to become a regional VP at one company, and headed up a division at my company before even attempting the FE exam. He has since gotten his PE. Another VP at my outfit, who runs a branch office, also does not have his PE. Yet another guy I work with not only doesn't have a PE, he doesn't even have a college degree! He previously was a regional manager at one company and a VP at another before joining us.

I share these stories because there are a few good lessons to be taken out of them:
1. It's NEVER too late to get your PE. If YOU want it, go out, get the books, take the classes, do whatever you have to do to pass those tests. And don't sell yourself short - your chances are definitely better than 50/50.
2. Whether you have the academic credentials or not, if you're a good manager you'll earn the respect of co-workers and clients alike. Not having those two letters after your name doesn't make you "unqualified" and it certainly doesn't discredit your 20 years in the buisness.

 

[UcfSE]

Those are very good points born2drill. My experiences with those who don't have their EI much less their PE and yet have many years experince have been on the opposite end of the stick from yours. I have no doubt that has influenced my perspective lol. Still, though they didn't have degrees, the engineers in your example were still qualified to do their job. I don't doubt the qualifications of the guy in question at all. I have no knowledge of them lol, and only meant that showing the motivation to get a PE even if you are well qualified shows some good drive and pride in your job. I would find it very respectable, imho of course

 

[jsummerfield]

Corporations have officers, directors and managers that supervise engineers who lack any understanding of technical issues. You do not need to be a PE to own an engineering firm. Firm registration may requires a PE as an employee or perhaps an officer.

For most of us, an enineering degree is a better credential in our field than any other degree. However, some obtain a PE based upon another degree such as physics or technology. In these cases the PE adds a credential that is helpful in recognition.

Do not overstate the reality of a PE. I have worked with at least one or more licensed or registered professional engineers who lacked competency at their job. Registration attempts to verify a minimum level of competency. However, it has no relationship with employment details. Still, the PE differentiates engineers in a generally positive manner.

John

 

[BobPE]

jsummerfield:

you statements may not be accurate in all states as the PE is a state regulated concept. Ownership of an engineering firm may indeed be contingent upon having PE credentials in the ownership structure. Blanket statements with regard to the PE are always dangerous, check and recheck at the state level.

In my state you do need a PE to offer engineering advice, even to speak engineering advice at the ownership level of an engineering firm. So being an engineering firm owner, but not being able to discuss engineering at the board level would make it difficult to run an engineering firm.

If I had advice it would be a bit different than yours in that I would state: Do not understate the importance of registration. Everyone has worked with losers, PE or not, it is a fact of life. But the PE rules are very clear whether or not the PE holder is a loser really makes no difference unless their peers (including non-PE's) feel the PE engineer is incompetent and remedy the situation using the PE laws.


Iskit4iam:

I would recommend that you seek advice of council that is familiar with PE registration laws in the state that your prospective company is located. There will undoubtly be surprises that you can then prepare for. And don't fear the FE or PE, if you have an engineering undergrad, even a dated degree, you will make out fine with a bit of preparation.

Your PE's will most likely feel the pressure of them filling the void of management not being able to take responsible charge of the work being performed. Take that into account and address your PE's directly. Discuss their role and give them the opportunity to partake in compensation that will reflect their level of responsibility. These PE's will be your firm until you position yourself to take responsible charge. Reward them.

As for your clients, I don't think they will have much to say unless your competition primes them that you may have perceived weaknesses in your ownership structure....This is something your management and marketing should be able to address....



Let us know how you make out,....


BobPE

 

[JAE]

EddyC and BobPE have touched on a critical issue here that you should definitely consider.

Many states in the US (I assume you are in the US but the concept may also apply in other countries) REQUIRE that the owners be licensed professionals - either Architects or PE's. This is a corporate law issue.

I would suggest you put together a comprehensive business plan, get legal advice (per BobPE) and understand what the requirements are for all the states that you possibly will work in. Don't think for a minute that you will always be working in just your state of residence. Many of your future clients will have needs in more than your state.

So jsummerfield's comment "You do not need to be a PE to own an engineering firm" is not correct in many states....check out the laws and know what you are doing before you make a mistake.

 

[jsummerfield]

BobPE,
Where does the owner need to be a PE to own an engineering firm?

Agreed, my statement could have clarified and qualified the differences among states. I previously stated that the “firm registration may requires a PE as an employee or perhaps an officer.” The term officer implies corporate board membership. Is this a requirement in many states? Not Texas. Considering the extremes, firms include big corporations like Bechtel - the small end is individual engineers in a sole proprietorship. In Texas, firm registration applies to several business entities including sole proprietorship, firm, partnership, corporation, or joint stock association.

In Texas, for an engineering practice, the business entity must be registered - and the practice of engineering must be carried out only by engineers. The state board requires a firm to list those engineers who are engaged in the practice of engineering on behalf of the business entity. If the business entity is actively engaged in the practice of engineering, the practice of engineering may be personally performed by an engineer or directly supervised by an engineer who is a regular full-time employee of the business entity. This permits part-time engineers to perform engineering on projects. When engineers change employement, the employee must notify the state board.

Nowhere does Texas require the business owner to be an engineer. Sure, the regulations differ among every state. OK, perhaps some states require the owner to be registered. I would appreciate knowing the details for such an example.

Thanks for the clarification,


John

 

[JAE]

John - I don't think that Texas requires this, but many states do, and Texas may not be far behind. What seems to be happening, is that there are incentives for the state to require corporate licensing (gets them fee dollars) prior to any out-of-state firm coming into their state to practice.

The engineering boards have countered with pressure to make the incoming firms be "real" firms by requiring their officers to be licensed architects or engineers..thus adding more fee dollars (more registration fees).

So a non-PE type who is sole proprietor cannot come in to some states and have his/her PE's practice UNLESS these PE's are made officers/owners of the corporation.

All I'm suggesting is that prior to Iskit4iam deciding never to get a PE, a full study of the various surrounding states might be in order - look before you leap.

 

[TFL]

IN CT IN ORDER TO GET A CORPORATE LICENSE TO PRACTICE ENGINEERING ALL THE OWNERS NEED TO BE PEs. A CORP. LISCENSE IS REQUIRED BY THE STATE FOR STATE WORK

 

[jsummerfield]

So, if GE designs expands to add a new boiler or a design a new submarine, all GE stockholders must be licensed? Where can I find a pdf of the Connecticut PE regulations?

John

 

[jsummerfield]

Connecticut Corporate Application states:
No professional corporation (PC) or limited liability co (LLC) will be granted a registration unless there is a 100% Connecticut licensee’s ownership.

This is fairly specific to a small business. It is an excellent example as BobPE stated
"Ownership of an engineering firm may indeed be contingent upon having PE credentials in the ownership structure."

John

 

[Maui]

According to Article 145, section 7209, item 6 of the New York State Engineering and Land Surveying Title VIII Education Laws located at

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=30&a=138

"It shall be lawful for a corporation organized and existing under
the laws of the state of New York which on the fifteenth day of April,
nineteen hundred thirty-five and continuously thereafter, was lawfully
practicing engineering or land surveying in New York state, to continue
such practice provided that the chief executive officer shall be a
professional engineer licensed under this article, if practicing
engineering, or a land surveyor licensed under this article, if
practicing land surveying, and provided further that the person or
persons carrying on the actual practice of engineering or surveying on
behalf of, or designated as "engineer" or "surveyor", with or without
qualifying or characterizing word, by such corporation shall be
authorized to practice engineering or land surveying as provided in this
article. It shall be lawful for a corporation which, on account of or
as a result of requirements, restrictions or provisions of federal law,
was organized subsequent to April fifteenth, nineteen hundred
thirty-five for the purpose of taking over an existing engineering
organization established prior to such time and which has taken over
such organization and continued its engineering activities, provided
that the chief executive officer of such corporation shall be a
professional engineer licensed under this article and provided further,
that the person or persons carrying on the actual practice of
engineering on behalf of, or designated as "engineer", with or without
qualifying or characterizing word, by such corporation, shall be
authorized to practice engineering as provided in this article. No such
corporation shall change its name or sell its franchise or transfer its
corporate rights, directly or indirectly to any person, firm or
corporation without the consent of the department. Each such
corporation shall obtain a triennial registration on payment of a fee of
fifty dollars.

 

[jjeng2]

There is a lot of good advice here that I would give you but it seems everyone beat me to it. I will say that the PE will be much easier than the EIT for someone like you. Id give the EIT a shot and if you pass, the worst is over. But check all state regs on Eng licencing and biz ownership first.

 

[Iskit4iam]

Thanks for all your imput. The two states the company works in have registration requirements of "none" and "corporate officer". Even if it required a PE be the CEO I don't see much of a problem. I didn't think of this so I'm grateful you brought it up.

Since I've been out of school I done almost no thermal or fluid flow work. My area of interest was mechanical design.

All of you gave great answers but only a few answered the key question:"How would you react if you were one of the engineers in this position?" Thanks

 

[JAE]

Wooo - asking engineers to wax eloquent on human responses....well, here goes...

I think it depends on the culture of the firm, the personality of the leader, and the nature of the engineers.

The nature of the engineers is that in some disciplines you have engineers who are very technical oriented and shy away from management, marketing, and human resource management. Their attitude is "give me work to do and keep me away from the client". For those types - you'd be fine. We have, in our firm, a non-PE department head that does great. He's very knowledgeable and is a good leader. The PE's respect him and work well with him.

The leader then, should show deference to the engineers and treat them with respect. This is just like a lot of other posts in Eng-Tips here where older Cadd techs or draftsman have a hard time with young, brash, egotistical engineers right out of school. Its all in the attitude you project to your employees. Respect them, compensate them properly (or well), recognize their accomplishments and they would generally be devoted employees.

The culture is where it makes or breaks you - if the engineers do have aspirations for management, etc., then provide career paths (clearly defined) within your business that allow them to grow not only technically, but managerially as well. Give them a line of sight to those paths.

 

[BJC]

Maui
I use to work for a large multi-national engineer construction firm. The did work in the billions of dollars all over the world including NY. I know the CEO, president and CFO were not registered in NY. How do the big firms work in NY now?