Need Advice - Should I get a PhD? 6

[Zalech13]

I'm a 34 year old mechanical engineer currently working in industry and I'm considering pursuing a PhD, but I'm unsure whether it is the right decision for me. I wanted to share my situation and see if anyone can offer some insight as to whether pursuing this path would make sense.

I have been working in industry since graduating with my BSME in 2012. I earned a Master of Science in Engineering a few years ago going part-time on my previous employer's dime. I also earned a PE license, for whatever that's worth. I really like my current employer as a company, they pay and treat me well, but I'm looking at the paths I have available to me going forward in my career and I don't like any of the options. I'm doing a lot of project management in my current role and I'm just bored by it; I feel like I have more to offer on the technical side of things. But I also know that there are less opportunities for advancement if I go technical, so I don't really like where that ends either. Where the PhD comes into it is that I really like the idea of being a University Professor, teaching and doing research. I could see myself being really happy in that type of role. So I've been looking into PhD programs and trying to decide if this is the right move or not. The good news is, with my masters under my belt, I would just need to do 5-6 classes and then work on my research/dissertation, so it wouldn't be a huge lift relatively speaking. Here are my hesitations:

1. I would need to stay in my current job full time while I'm doing my PhD part time, likely paying out of pocket since my current employer won't want to pay for a degree that really won't benefit them at all. The work we do at my company does not lend itself to PhD level research, unfortunately. I have a mortgage and a 2-year old who goes to daycare, so money is tight as it is, even with my wife and I both working.

2. Along those same lines, I get the sense that starting over as an entry-level Professor would be a big pay cut from where I am now, and I probably wouldn't recover back to where I am for at least 5-7 years, if ever.

3. I honestly have no clue what I would want to research. There isn't a particular topic that I feel super passionate about as of yet.

I'd appreciate any advice on my situation, as I feel a bit lost. Are my concerns valid? Are there other factors I'm not even considering? Am I overthinking this and I should just go for it? Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from anyone who's been through a PhD or hit the same career wall that I have.

 

[SWComposites]

You really need to want to go into academia to make it worthwhile. Or maybe go work at a research center at a big company. Sort of depends on your specific field.

Keep in mind that newly anointed PhD’s often have to work in post-doc positions before getting a professor position. Those are low paid. And then you need to bring in research $ and publish lots of papers in order to get tenure. Its a tough road. And you will likely need to move to different universities before getting a professor position. Is this something your family is willing to do.

And don’t underestimate the time commitment required to do the PhD thesis work.

And do you enjoy teaching? And enjoy networking to hunt up research grants.

If you don’t have an area that you want to do research on, then frankly you are not ready.

Suggest you go talk to some professors at a nearby university.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

My Opinion:

Coming from a PhD program dropout, DON'T DO IT! I would NEVER go back (unless I won the lottery). PhD students are considered a commodity by tenure-tract faculty. Unless you bring your own VERY strong research topic, the funding-hungry faculty will not take a "part-time PhD student" seriously enough to invest in developing your future, and potentially their NSF funding competition. Engineering PhD programs are very rigorous, unlike say doctorates in education fields (heavy shade intended).

Also, you have a mortgage and a young family. I wouldn't even think of taking that gamble.

 

[HVAC-Novice]

Ultimately you learn for yourself. Do what you enjoy. Even if you don't make more money right away, you have more options later if ever needed. Doing it now is easier than in 10 years.

I assumed most science PhD are free or even paid since you do actually useful research work? Maybe inquire with the university or professors about the exact conditions. Also inquire what exact time commitment is etc. Find out if they have topics to research... if you then still don't know what you want, then you probably won't enjoy doing the PhD.

Also depends on what you alternative is. I f you have children, using time for PhD is a big sacrifice. If you are single and just play video games when you come home, you may as well do the PhD. Since you have a 2-year old, you probably should focus on that?

 

[Enable]

I’m a professor at a trade college where we have a mix of PhDs and folks with experience (I’m in the latter category). We’re also attached to a research university. Unfortunately, here’s the current landscape:

Enrollments are down and funding has not increased. Teaching spots are primarily given to adjuncts (read: min wage contract PhDs) and the number of tenure track (TT) professorships are decreasing. However, since publishing is king (“publish or perish”) labs are full to the brim with budding PhD students to help their PI (prime investigator / advisor) to crank out articles. This has led to an ever-increasing number of PhDs for fewer research posts.

As a consequence, if you are not on the usual academic track (funded, full-time PhD started in your 20s, at a top 20 department) the outlook for a tenure track position is very, very bleak. Even if you are from the usual route, you still have to be willing to effectively move anywhere just to get a position!

I would not, under any conceivable circumstance, do a part-time PhD (or even a full-time PhD!!) if you require more than the possibility of picking up a class at the local university for minimum wage. The financial ramifications are stark and with a family you need to be levelheaded. However, if you want to do a PhD because you A) have the funds / time and B) it would genuinely make you happy just for doing it, then by all means do it! But if you don’t even have something you want to research I would think long and hard if this was actually the case.

You should check out /professors, /PhD and other channels on reddit. They provide a sobering account.

 

[xnuke]

I'm a former professor at a teaching polytechnic with a MS in engineering and fifteen years of engineering experience before I started my faculty position, and I agree with every point made by Enable. I took a 25% pay cut to take the teaching position, but I did it because I knew I loved teaching. I did so in my mid 30s.

I left burned out the year before I would have gotten tenure from the demands. I went back into industry, lowering my weekly work hours by 50% and increasing my pay by 50% at the same time. I also walked away from a PhD program that was more like indentured servitude when I left academia since the credential didn't seem to matter in industry with my MS and PE. I don't even tell companies when I apply that I was a PhD student, even though I came up with an original research problem that has industry application and solved it. I never even published it, though I have two-thirds of a dissertation written.

xnuke
"Live and act within the limit of your knowledge and keep expanding it to the limit of your life." Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.
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[CWB1]

You dont need a Phd to teach stateside. If you havent already, apply to teach an evening course to see if you enjoy the job, culture, etc. Most schools are perpetually looking for adjuncts.

When I was fresh out of college I asked one of the brightest and most successful engineers (and Phds) I've known for advice about whether to attend grad school immediately or wait. He (correctly) predicted that if I stayed in a good engineering dept I'd know more about engineering than college could teach within a few years. He was correct, I get bored in engineering courses/lectures today bc they're simple expansions of basic engineering concepts whereas legal, financial, obscure math or physics, and other coursework involve new topics and logic. Given the overabundance of MBAs, I recommend pursuing a JD if you want another degree.

Having managed a Fortune 50's support program for collegiate "research," I wouldnt get your hopes up about the quality of work in that realm. If you enjoy teaching I'd actually recommend finding a tenured position teaching full-time, not a waster of corporate write-offs and taxpayer pennies.

First and foremost tho I'd investigate why money is tight for an engineer in your mid-30s. Review your income vs the ASME salary survey percentiles, your budget vs expenses, and adjust accordingly. MI's fairly high-income and low cost of living, most are financially very comfortable by that point, and pay raises generally dont solve spending problems.

 

[SWComposites]

Most schools are perpetually looking for adjuncts. yeah, they are perpetually looking for them because the pay is so very low; particularly if you include the hours required to prepare the class materials. I've looked into it a couple of times, and it comes out to a very small fraction of my consulting rate, so nope, not going to do that.

 

[MintJulep]

If you really have a desire to teach, then look into teaching a course offered by a professional organization. For example, SAE.

https://www.sae.org/learn/professional-development/become-an-sae-instructor

 

[Zalech13]

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the insight. I'm leaning towards that getting a PhD is not going to be worth it for me, especially given that it's unlikely I'd be able to work as a Professor, and if I did it would be after years of financial and personal sacrifice that I don't think I can commit to.

That said, I still find myself lost as far as where to go in my career. As I said, I have no complaints about my current employer, and I am making good money ($115k - my comment about money being tight was more about whether I can afford to pay for a degree out of pocket along with the expenses that come with parenthood). I just find myself so disinterested in my job and I don't see another path that gets me excited. Has anyone else found themselves at this type of crossroads? What did you do?

 

[HVAC-Novice]

If you do it for the money or career, you should have done it when younger right after BS/MS and before you have children. If you do it now, it is more a thing to proof it to yourself. I myself got a "Master of Engineering" degree. but I knew it wouldn't get more more $, and I do it for my own pleasurer. One of our HR people literally told me they don't care about anything above the official minimum requirement. I learned a lot, but also paid a lot. I did it before child. I can't imagine doing it with child.

If you are not challenged enough at work, take on learning to automate your work, learn programming, or have little side projects that require research. Learn new productivity software... those all are things your employer likely supports and that may advance your career. And you can modulate how much time you spend on that at any time.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

I just find myself so disinterested in my job and I don't see another path that gets me excited. Has anyone else found themselves at this type of crossroads? What did you do?

Being well-paid, but comfortably stagnant, can be a blessing. It gives you the stability required to focus on your marriage, family, or something else altogether. I'm there now, but with a few more kids. I opted to spend the time getting the woman some simple certifications toward a pay bump (with far less effort than it would take to do the same in my field), and purchased an investment property.

Now, I enjoy the monotony of being "just a cog." lol.

 

[SWComposites]

What did you do? well, what I would do is look for another employer, or look into setting up a consulting business. the other option is to find more interesting work within your current company. don't wait for it to come to you, go out and poke around and find it. sounds like you are doing project management now; look for technical issues in your current company, and figure out how you can work on them or solve them; transfer into a different group if required.

 

[IRstuff]

I just find myself so disinterested in my job and I don't see another path that gets me excited

Sounds like a mid-life crisis in the making. If you can't find anything at the company you're at, then you probably need to find a new job, possibly in something very distantly removed from anything you've done in the past to give you the challenge that you seem to seek.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[Carlos Cardoso]

I'm not in the States so this may be completely different so take it with a pinch of salt but academia is a pretty gruesome environment to work in from the ground up, particularly if you already have real world experience and will be inserted amongst people that will likely have none.

On the other hand there's some companies that do require PhDs and value them, I would look at a company that would be willing to sponsor it and give you a role where it made sense rather than going to academia. But this is me.

 

[geesaman.d]

There are a couple of MS / PhD Engineers at my company who work full-time for us and teach an Engineering class at the local university branch. I believe the pay for teaching that class is low but they enjoy doing it and live without the risk and difficulty of full-time academia.

The PhD is of limited value in the US industry. (Compared to Germany, where business leaders of technical companies have multiple advanced degrees in both business and engineering, or academia where a PhD is the beginning of the journey). In US industry, PhD narrows the job options significantly to where the specific skills and depth of knowledge in your PhD. Everyone assumes you got that PhD and went into industry to do that specific thing for a career. If that is a role that makes you happy, go for it. But in US the PhD does not necessarily open any other doors. This is not always obvious because HR tends to put the highest conceivable degree requirements on job listings to narrow the responses and reduce their workload. Most Engineering managers want HR to review as many applicants as possible to find qualified, good engineers. So take care that some job listings out there are badly distorted by the disconnect between HR and management.

 

[CWB1]

Here in the midwest adjuncts are $25-40/hr, so not an engineering salary but may be worthwhile. The time required varies by school/dept but IME is fairly minimal outside the classroom.

Stateside, roles and the associated compensation depend more on knowledge and ability than education as it should. I've worked in several mega-corps' dedicated research depts (no product dev), and while Phds are a popular way of fast-tracking yourself down a niche's rabbit hole into a research slot, many with a BS with significant experience fill the same roles. Its also important to realize that a Phd in an unrelated niche isn't a brag, most folks in thermal niches like combustion development wont care about your Phd ME focused on traditional mechanics and materials.

OTOH advanced degrees, licenses, "senior" titles, and other irrelevant brags are often viewed as beneficial in consulting bc they make you seem "impressive" to non-technical execs and others who dont know better.

 

[dik]

If you need to ask, maybe you shouldn't apply for one.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[271828]

I'm a professor with an extensive industry background, got my PhD late, and have supervised PhDs, so I can weigh-in pretty well on your post.

...it wouldn't be a huge lift relatively speaking. Here are my hesitations:

1. I would need to stay in my current job full time while I'm doing my PhD part time, likely paying out of pocket since my current employer won't want to pay for a degree that really won't benefit them at all. The work we do at my company does not lend itself to PhD level research, unfortunately. I have a mortgage and a 2-year old who goes to daycare, so money is tight as it is, even with my wife and I both working.

Of the PhD students I've supervised who were full-time with no life outside of school, there has been a nearly 100% success rate.

Of the ones who tried something like what you're considering, the success rate has been 0%. They have all completed their coursework and then stalled out on their dissertation research. None has even gotten close.

To save you and your family a lot of money and misery, I'd suggest either going full-time, burn the bridges behind you, or forget it.

I think the reason isn't obvious. Engineers, like most people, do a lot better in structured environments with tight deadlines and clear objectives -- like most of life in most engineering offices. The dissertation is the opposite of that. It's usually the first time an engineer has tried a task of that magnitude in an unstructured environment. It is a lot harder than it seems like it would be, especially with a family. If you have consulting work competing for your time, your chances go way down because that consulting work is probably structured with deadlines and will always be a higher priority.

To finish your dissertation, you would have to obsessively research and write most waking hours for a couple of years. Whether that would fly in your family depends on your wife, primarily. Will she tolerate that? Will she be OK with you being almost completely detached for a couple of years? If work-life balance is important to you, then forget it.

2. Along those same lines, I get the sense that starting over as an entry-level Professor would be a big pay cut from where I am now, and I probably wouldn't recover back to where I am for at least 5-7 years, if ever.

Assistant professor pay is competitive with industry pay for about the same amount of experience. Later, this changes. You could have 25 years of experience with average 1-2%/year raise over the long haul, and then new grads are making almost as much as you are. The only way people make serious money in academia is to tap into a very lucrative type of research. In my experience (these salaries are public info), the best profs with 40+ years, bringing in literally millions of dollars per year are the only ones making industry "principal level" money.

Pay varies widely, obviously, but I'd say in big round numbers, academia will be about half the money long term.

3. I honestly have no clue what I would want to research. There isn't a particular topic that I feel super passionate about as of yet.

Not a concern. Your advisor will work with you to select a dissertation topic. That will probably become your research specialty after you get out of school.

 

[GregLocock]

My brother in law did complete his thesis while working full time. Every evening, every weekend, and all holidays for a couple of years. And all to get the title of Not a real doctor (joke, yes I know).

Cheers

Greg Locock


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