Negotiating a Raise 4

[vc66]

I know, I know. This has been killed a thousand times. I've read all of the other threads about it, but I'd still value some opinions on the subject.

My boss just put in for my promotion about two weeks ago, and the time is coming to start talking about the raise that goes along with it. I've only been here for 3 years, and from what I've heard around the water cooler, there is a pretty standard 10% raise that goes along with a level promotion, which to me is bullocks. We didn't receive raises last year because of the down turn, and our pay was cut by about 7% for a few months. There have been no bonuses of any kind.

To make a long story short, I've been working on a LOT of different projects spanning different groups of the company... from engineering, to manufacturing, to IT, to our ERP system implementation. I've been doing a lot of work, lately.

If I get the 10% raise, that puts me in roughly the 25 percentile for my position level. That doesn't really sit well with me. I have a wedding to pay for in a few months, so I was thinking about negotiating a lower increase with a bonus. Not sure if this is ever done.

My question is, has anyone been in this type of situation before? How have you negotiated? Any particular tactics you found useful? Has anyone negotiating something in addition to a pay increase?

I know this is a verrry subjective issue, but I'd like to hear some anecdotal opinions on the matter.

Thanks in advance.

V

 

[KENAT]

Ha, Ha, Ha...

Sorry vc66, if your site is anything like mine then good luck.

My old boss tried several times to get stuff for me and never really got anything formal, take it back he got me one 'bronze award' for working 16 hour days for several weeks, it was worth $250 before tax as I recall. Heck I only got 8% increase at the annual pay increase 9 months or so after I picked up the checking & GD&T etc. lead role. Not sure where your 10% came from, if true I was jipped. Last time he tried to get me something he got ripped a new one and it may have been linked to his layoff a couple months later.

I have been able to get some under the table time in lieu though not so much now my old boss is gone. He also got some other informal stuff for me which was actually worth a little. However even this was before the big cuts last year or so.

One of my colleagues tried to negotiate extra vacation instead of pay at one point but they weren’t having any of it.

Despite the fact that our medium company is really several small companies in different locations, they like to act like they're a big company and inflexibility seems to go hand in hand wiht this.

So, good luck and if you find the secret let me know!;-)

(And it's Bollocks not bullocks, if you're going to swear like a Brit at least get the spelling right;-))

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[kelowna]

"negotiating a lower increase with a bonus"

To me that does make absolutely no sense whatsoever! Take a loan and pay it back with the extra income. That way you get the bonus and the payraise once you pay back the loan

Future salary increases and bonus are likely to be a percentage of your salary. By trying to decrease it now you are shooting yourself in the foot

 

[ctopher]

In today's economy, I would take whatever raise they give you and be happy you still have a job.

Chris
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[Qshake]

In our industry the norm for a level promotion is 10%. Sure there are extremes of this but 10% is what i've received and what I've heard of others at other companies in the same market.

I've only known one company in the chemical business that underpaid their researchers, knowingly by all parties, only to pay out exobiant bonuses at end of FY. and I mean exorbiant bonuses. It was not uncommon to hear from friends that went out and puchased high performance cars or boats or houses. Frankly I couldn't understand it, wouldn't you rather be paid a higher salary for a longer period of time than risk a big payoff some of the time?

Regards,
Qshake

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[vc66]

Sorry, KENAT! I have a lot to learn. You Brits are so far ahead of Americans in the curse world, it's ridiculous.

I guess from your point of view, I'm SOL. Hmmm, I wonder where I can get some leverage?

kelowna-

I could go that route, but I HATE taking out loans.

ctopher-

A lot of people say that... and I hate it. It's taken a lot of time and effort to make myself as marketable to employers as I believe I am, and while I am happy that I have a job, I don't believe it's because I'm lucky.

Qshake-

I haven't been here long enough to know what the raises are like, but as I said--word is, it's about 10%. I don't think I'd mind an outlandish bonus, but I don't think outlandish is what, if any, I will see.

-----------

I know that this is a dumb question, but here goes. Do you think if I point out that a 10% raise puts me in the 25 percentile, and that's unacceptable to me--that they'll give a problem?

Keep the responses coming... I appreciate all of them.

V

 

[IRstuff]

That would seem to depend on where you're actually ranked, wouldn't it? Have you been getting superior reviews? Are you the "go-to" guy for a bunch of different stuff? Who are the 75% above you? Are they more experienced and/or more productive? Are they doing more important jobs? Were you particularly "good" this year?

The answers to these questions will determine whether your overall pay is within bounds of how you rank in the eyes of the company. Beyond that, how good is your relationship with your boss? Will he protect you from making silly, career-limiting moves?

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[KENAT]

vc66, Our employers proclaimed goal is to meet 'industry standards' when it comes to compensation.

I've heard it said that this means they want the average pay to be around the 50 percentile with not a lot of people much over that.

Given that you're new to the position as it's a promotion, it's arguably not that unreasonable that you'll be around the 25th percentile. Starting from the bottom when new to a position isn't that unheard of. If they put you closer to 50 you probaly wouldn't be getting any big future raises without getting another promotion.

Where I am my guess is making a big deal of this would put you on the $hit list, a concern if the solar/led market does flatten out later this year as some predict and they make their usual response.

As IRstuff says a lot depends on your relationship with your boss and how much he'll protect you. My old boss certainly did some of this for me. Even if he's convinced, if he can't convince his manager then it's not much help to you. In fact, given that hire/fire decisions aren't always made by direct line managers, it could get you both on the list.

Did you get a 'significantly exceeds expectations' in your review if not then I wouldn't expect much.

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[vc66]

IRstuff--

The last three years I've gotten very good reviews. I'm definitely the only person that people come to for a lot of different things. I am, other than the ME Manager, one of the most senior mechanicals in our division, and I work on some very time critical projects.

I think my biggest problem is that I've been doing the job that I've been "promoted" to for some time now (about 8 months) with no compensation for the same.

My boss doesn't like me very much. He does tell me all the time though, "this is why you're on this project because you get results..." and blah blah blah.

Without trying to sound ungrateful... I don't need compliments. I need cash.

V

 

[davidinindy]

Get greedy, and you might end up with no job.
Don't take anything for granted in this economy. I tried negotiating a higher starting salary after an initial offer because I thought I was "The man" for a new position. Wrong! I was stupid.
Be happy you have a job.
I wouldn't shake the tree for fear that it'll come crashing down on you.

David

 

[moltenmetal]

I've learned that it NEVER hurts to ask. It can definitely hurt if you demand or issue ultimatums, but that's a totally different matter.

One thing is certain: if you do not ask, you WILL not GET.

A company that would fire you for merely ASKING for a raise is one not worth working for.

OK, you've eaten some sh*t in the form of pay cuts and deferred/delayed/unacknowledge promotions or raises etc. And now you're in the 25 percentile - relative to whom? Engineers of your graduation year in general? Engineers of your specialty in your region, in composite? Engineers of your level in your company? This matters GREATLY as to how to interpret that situation!

I have my all-time favourite Dilbert comic in my office. The pointy-haired boss says "It's our policy to hire only the very best technical professionals." To which Dilbert replies, "Is it not also our policy to pay the industry AVERAGE?" The boss replies, "That's exactly how we like them- bright, but CLUELESS!"

 

[davidinindy]

If he asks, and they refuse to give it to him, then in the back of their minds, they'll be thinking he isn't happy where he's at, at the pay he is at, and looking to leave.
It's a tightrope that I'm no longer willing to walk on in this economy. I'll take what I can get at a company who's decent to work for (as long as it'll pay the bills, which have been trimmed to very minimal), and ride it out till things get better.
I'm past due for a raise where I'm at, but am hesitant to even ask about it.

David

 

[moltenmetal]

"If he asks, and they refuse to give it to him, then in the back of their minds, they'll be thinking he isn't happy where he's at, at the pay he is at, and looking to leave."

...or if he asks, and he's VALUABLE to them, and they know what it'll cost to recruit and train his replacement, they'll do the math and cough up the dough. Probably not what he asks for, but something he can be somewhat more satisfied with than what he's getting now.

Or maybe, just maybe, they'll get smart and offer him a cut of the money he generates or saves, rather than simply coughing up more money for showing up every day.

...or if he doesn't ask, and builds up resentment in silence over being underpaid, he might leave a job he otherwise quite likes utterly unnecessarily, merely because somebody else dangles a carrot in front of his nose. There's no guarantee that this won't happen anyway, but a good employer wants to head that kind of thing off at the pass.

If you're a worthless cubicle stuffer, none of this will work of course. Your best strategy is to keep your head down and hope nobody notices you.

 

[patprimmer]

It depends on how you ask.

To take the extremes:-

"If you don't pay me $x you can stuff your job up your %^$$#"

or " I was wondering if this promotion might have a positive impact on my remuneration package in any way"

There is probably a middle path, closer to the latter. Very close to the latter if your boss does not like you or feels threatened by you.

Regards
Pat
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[KENAT]

Thanks for the chuckle Molten - "maybe, just maybe, they'll get smart and offer him a cut of the money he generates or saves, rather than simply coughing up more money for showing up every day" maybe you have to know our employer to see why that's quite so funny but I nearly showered my screen with hot beverage.

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[moltenmetal]

Hope you didn't choke on any of that, KENAT!

Yes, it depends on both what you ask for and how you ask.

One sure way to get canned is to demand more than your boss is making...

 

[cksh]

I have not tried to negotiate a better raise in years (about 15 to be exact).

You really have nothing to negotiate with. 10% has been standard in my xp. Your best bet is always to find a better paying job. That way you can get that 15 to 20% or more.

If you want to negotiate try to keep the ultimatums or the "or else" out of the conversation. Let them know why you think you should get more. What value do you bring to the company etc.

 

[titan11]

take a higher raise over a lower raise + bonus. It could add up in the future. If anything just borrow the money from someone instead if you need some immediate cash.

 

[KENAT]

Just ask if you've done anything worthy of a 'gold' reward and get the cash from that.

(I assume you have awards like us, or is this site specific?)

Of course, I can't remember the last award given out, and the last with real money was some time before that, oh - and as I've mentioned before the last time my boss put me in for just a bronze award he pretty much got told to %$%@#$%#$ off.

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[moltenmetal]

titan11: at our place, taking a better raise in return for less bonus would be a very bad financial decision. Some have made it, only to regret it later- and promptly go into the boss's office and ask for a pay cut!

Most places are not like ours, though. Big bonuses are oft promised and seldom delivered.

Ask not, and you shall NEVER receive!

cksh: if you've gotten 10%/yr or more over 15 yrs, you either started out REALLY low or you've got nothing to complain about! Most eng salaries flatten out in costant value dollars after about 10 years.