NFPA 13R - Multifamily with attic access

[Designer_82]

I'm working on a project that is 3 stories with attic, multifamily residential, type VA construction.

We designed the system to NFPA 13R, with no sprinklers in the attic.
Now the architect wants to add access to the attic for the 3'rd floor tenant.
(note, there's only one tenant on the 3rd fl. of this building)

My question is, can the architect actually allow access to the attic for a tenant in a multifamily as far as the building or fire codes are concerned?
If yes, would sprinklers be required in the attic in this case?
(considering tenant will likely use it as storage)

Thanks

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Designer 82,

That decision is TOTALLY up to the registered architect and NOT a sprinkler designer.

Here is how I see it working.

I am a NICET IV and have been designing systems for nearly 50 years now, my first NFPA #13 was 1974, and if I have learned anything it is that I am NOT an architect.

I have seen some designers get into the worst trouble ever because they thought since they were good at designing sprinklers they should know the building codes and should be able to decide when a building needed sprinklers and if it was NFPA #13 or 13R. Nothing is farther from the truth.

I know a single story motel that ended up requiring a full NFPA #13 system because it had something to do with means of egress and distance to the door. That isn't my call that's the registered architect for the project.

Does the architect know how to design sprinkler systems? Very, very, very few do but that isn't their job that's your job. Same thing goes on who decides what what standard to use. Do we use NFPA #13 or 13R? That is NOT your call that is the call of the registered architect for the project. Depending on where you are located things can come into play such as distances from adjacent buildings and lot lines.... something you, as a sprinkler system designer, aren't expected to know but the registered architect sure is.

When I get a set of architectural drawings where we could be looking at a NFPA $13R system I look at the drawings to find EXACTLY what the architect of record says it should be because, as the registered architect of record, that is HIS job and not mine!

If it is not on there I ALWAYS ask the architect of record and I let him tell me, in writing, what standard I should use. I get it in writing and at that point that is my get out of jail free card.

OK, let's say the architect of record wants sprinklers in that portion of the attic. Is it right or wrong? I honestly don't know maybe the architect of record decided he will put of some rated walls to enclose just that section of the attic? Maybe, maybe not and that is not your decision to make.

I had a job about six years ago where the architect of had on the drawings NFPA #13R with his seal and signature. I wasn't sure if it was right but my gut told me it was a full NFPA 13 system but... I wasn't the architect of record and when I start making decisions based on the building code look at it as I am playing architect without a license which is illegal in every state I am familiar with. Job was almost completed when the state fire marshal came up and labeled the job a full NFPA #13 system. What a disaster. We had to run 800' of 8" line to a hydrant in front of the building with a put and you name it. With a 13R system we had a 4" line we could have tied into but.... this job went from $50,000 to $250,000 overnight!

To decide what standard to follow was not my decision to make and I am glad as heck I never made it.

We designers don't follow building codes we follow STANDARDS as that is our job with the architect following the building code.

Building code doesn't tell us how it simply tells us the standard to follow. Let the architect do his job as the expert and tell you what standard to follow.

Sorry I got kind of wild on this but it is a lesson I have learned by watching disaster strike others.

A four story apartment building in Atlanta. Well, sounds to me like a #13R system but it wasn't because of some things beyond our scope of expertise (are there any registered architects reading this?) and that four story apartment building was a full NFPA #13 system. The bad part of this is the job was 95% completed and the architect never put on his drawings the standard to follow so the sprinkler contractor stupidly made that decision himself. Well, aren't we all supposed to be experts in sprinklers? Yes, we are but that is NFPA standards and not the building code.

Make the architect tell you what you need to do and that standard to follow. Get it in writing even if it's just an email because that could be your get out of jail free card.

Sorry everyone, I got carried away a bit.

 

[Designer_82]

Thanks for the warning, it is good to let the architect make the call on system type to be used. I agree.

For my question... In a multi-family attic, that is accessable to one of the tenants, will the attic need to be sprinklered? Obviously the tenant will use it for storage.

So as I said, only one tenant on top floor of building, and this is the tenant that gets access to attic.

So you have: accessable attic, and that will likely be used for storage.

 

[cdafd]

1. What kind of access??? Scuttle hole

Door?? Pull down stairs??

Is it labeled attic or storage

Is the floor decking?

2. I would say,,,, This is more of an ahj call

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I would insist that be the architects call and not yours (ours).

Will the tenant have access to the entire attic or just a portion over his living unit? This should be answered by the registered architect.

Perhaps the architect is figuring a rated partition between the tenants attic space and the rest of it? I am not an architect, I think I made that pretty clear, but I would think if the architect placed a one hour enclosure around the tenant space sprinklers might be required in his attic space but not the other spaces?

But then again my thoughts on this are worth what you are paying for it and that is absolutely NOTHING.

If the architect had on his plans NFPA #13R for the design then you would be entitled to a change order and let the architect write that change order for you.

I have seen to many fire sprinkler designers play architect when it comes to NFPA 13 vs NFPA 13R and get burned. We are NOT architects we are qualified design technicians who should stay in our little niche and never wander out of our standards.

And I am not belittling we technicians because we know more about fire sprinklers than most architects will ever know. Architects know the building code and we know the standards. There is a huge difference there.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I guess you could say I design every sprinkler system I have in accordance with NFPA #13 unless the registered architect tells me otherwise and do that in writing please.

That is our get out of jail free card. It is his call and never ours.

 

[cdafd]

I believe also each tenant is required, by code, attic access, if there is an attic above their unit.

Plus any mechanical equipment up there that requires attic access to begin with?

 

[Designer_82]

"I believe also each tenant is required, by code, attic access, if there is an attic above their unit."

Thank you but definitely cannot be the case. I live on top floor of multi family builing myself and have no attic acess.

"What kind of access??? Scuttle hole

Door?? Pull down stairs??"

The architect intends to add those pull down stairs type.

 

[Designer_82]

I believe, from everything I've read and researched so far, that if the tenant gains access to the attic then sprinklers would be required up there.

Which leads me to a follow up- If procedeeng with adding sprinklers in the attic, can you simply install a wet pipe system up there if space heaters are provided?
I belive no it's not that simple and NFPA 13R has special attic requirements, that are quite complex. Correct me if wrong.

Thanks

 

[cdafd]

Does not seem an automatic requirement, if access is provided

If it never freezes you can do a wet system

Don’t think heaters will help much. Attic has to be vented.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

If it won't freeze you might be able to use residential uprights.

As far as freezing conditions that again is in the registered architects circle of responsibility to tell you.

 

[Designer_82]

So, to update...

The architect has deemed this attic to be no storage.
Therefore, not requiring sprinklers per NFPA 13R.

However, architect has shown a pull-down hatch into the attic inside the 3'rd floor unit, which is on the highest habitable floor.

My predicament here is that he's designated the attic "no storage" but at the same time shows an access hatch from the 3'rd floor unit into the attic.

My thought is to leave sprinklers out of the attic (since he's designated it no storage) but to get a signed letter that holds the design professional harmless from any fires originated from storage.


Please let me know your thoughts.
Thank you

 

[cdafd]

I do not think a letter will help in a courtroom.

Might even hurt.


How are you involved in this? The sprinkler company, or other.

I still think the attic access is required by code, so no matter what, it has to be there.


Is this building designed to IBC


1208.2 Attic Spaces
An opening not less than 20 inches by 30 inches (559 mm by 762 mm) shall be provided to any attic area having a clear height of over 30 inches (762 mm). Clear headroom of not less than 30 inches (762 mm) shall be provided in the attic space at or above the access opening



Where I have seen it in each unit, is where one hour separation is done in the attic, for each unit.