NFPA 25 Inspection Software 1

[Jaxx66]

thread184-266730

Interested in help finding the best software and hand held devices for the NFPA25 inspection and service. We are a 50 plus year company with extreme knowledge of systems, but never have completed our NFPA13 electronically. With the NFPA25 now in effect in NYC we are very interested in software to help with the inspections. Please any help will be appreciated.

Thank you,
Jaxx

 

[NJ1]

50 years plus company in NYC? NFPA 25 now in effect in NYC?
Do not rub your company's chest so hard. NFPA 25 has being in effect in NYC for years. I am a local 638 active member and even though I no longer work for any company in NYC we have being using NFPA 25 as the adopted standard for years.
If you want my opinion, all those softwares suck, they are over rated plus they make your technicians lazy.
All they do is cover for your errors and ommisions since they is no written report on file.

 

[pipesnpumps]

I expected NJ1's response, but others here have stated the same... Barcoding and software seems ripe for overlooking things. Scan only without thinking.

That said I am interested in what you find out, since I am helping to write contracts for ITM inspection testing and maintenance services for 10,000+ building DOD facilities.... I'm not sure what to require for proving that bldgs have been inspected (and getting paid). Software may be useful for reporting and tracking but it sounds like that is not viewed in a good light.

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.

 

[Jaxx66]

Sorry should have said 3rd generation family business,very proud. Grandfather help right sprinkler code with DOB back in the late 30's.(Oldest Co. in the city-Think I heard my chest being hit. Wasn't boasting) I know NFPA25 had been in effect for year for high rise, factory and hospitals but it has now hit main street for all buildings except for R2,R3. What I was trying to say is over 3000 accounts doing NFPA13 monthly inspections since the 60's and kept using paper trail now looking to switch over electronically.

Have a great crew that don't do short cuts but do understand that it can make them lazy in time. This is one co. I spoke to this week and want me to do demo on software. I would like to create our own but very difficult.(Matthew Hyde- OnSite Software 267-253-4852)

Thanks
Jaxx

 

[NJ1]

Just be careful with those softwares. I personally dont like them besides you want to have a written report to back up what is on the software report.

 

[Jaxx66]

Thank you NJ1- Sounds like paper is still the proper way to keep records. That's why never when switched years ago.

 

[ContractorDave]

I'll agree with most everyone in regards to software based inspections to a degree, especially as noted with respect to bar-code based systems. We bit the bullet on one system and tried for two years almost to make it work for us. In the end we simply thru up our collective hands. The reports were too convoluted, the web based storage solution was way less than ideal and there were endless quirks.

But software based solutions don't have to be about bar-coding and being able to do 4 hour inspections at a gallop. Software based inspections are quite frankly inevitable. And what they are really about from my point of view is storage, access / retrieval, sharing,- and saving the planet one tree at a time.

I've created all our inspections in one Excel file - just choose the tab for the type of inspection you are going to do and away you go. Excel has many great time saving features like drop down menus, data validation, automatic dates, automatic copying of cell information where duplication exists between separate sheets or areas, auto graphing of fire pump, standpipe and hydrant flows, application and correction with Affinity Laws (though 25, 2011 has eliminated this requirement).

The reports are similar to the paper versions in that you still have to answer the questions, and are certainly still a work in progress, but with the electronic version I can e-mail reports, attach pictures, save them to our on-line data base for retrieval by the customer or AHJ whenever they wish, and I'm doing my part to help the environment.

The problem has been that until lately, we actually still did the paper version and transferred the field report to the computer in the office. The goal has always been to use a tablet style computer out in the field to eliminate this. I could just never find the right combination of software and hardware to make this work because I need to essentially use the real version of MS Excel. We are currently experimenting with the HP Slate 500 Tablet with Windows 7 OS.

I'll keep you posted.

Because I like trees.

Regards
Dave

A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be.
Thomas Paine

 

[ContractorDave]

Just to add to that, another excellent feature of having the tablet with me is I have every version of NFPA 25 since it sprang out of 13. I also carry SSD cards (the Slate only currently has a 64g drive on it) with pdfs that have everything from msds sheets to data submittals, operating instructions, and related code reference material (Fire Marshals Bulletins, etc.)

And it's got wireless on it so I can download the report to our data base or e-mail it to my client.

It's got a camera on it too, so I don't have to take pictures with a separate camera and then combine the two

Regards

Dave

 

[shieldfire]

Lightecho,
Thanks for your valuable information. We too are on the verge of buying a software solution to help with tracking and reporting of NFPA 25 inspections. Onsite seems to offer a beautiful solution, but it seems there are alternatives out there that are much more cost effective and reliable. If you are willing to share, I would love to know how you track and manage upcoming inspections and services coming up, is through the use of excel as well? Thanks for all your previous info on the matter!

Regards,
Matt

 

[ContractorDave]

Matt

When I first came to the company and we started the sprinkler division, I was quite happy using Microsoft Outlook and still use it quite a bit today. You can have multiple calendars where you input your inspection events. Within the events you can hyperlink all your relevant information such as contacts, recent e-mails, past reports, invoices and work orders etc. You can set reminders to pop-up automatically.

For my division, this has been my primary method but a while back we decided to go with a scheduling software that works in conjunction with our accounting software. All our divisions are tied into this. Basically Stephanie looks over upcoming inspections a month in advance and puts them up on the whiteboard. Then she proceeds to contact clients and do the necessary logistics so customers aren't surprised when an inspector shows up, and an inspector isn't wasting time trying to find keys or waiting for a cook to get out of the way or waiting for a meeting to end etc etc etc etc.

Tell you what. No matter what you use, NOTHING beats a competent administrative assistant (as they're called now a days).

Back to that software though for a second, some of the nice things about it is it allows you to produce some useful reports that help you keep track of the big picture. If you can't step away now and then from the day to day details to look over the big picture, bad things can sneak up on you. Having the proper accounting and scheduling software will give you the tools to show you the big picture.

As for Onsite, we looked into their inspection suite along with several others. We ended up choosing one of the others but after almost 2 very frustrating years and probably close to $20K, we bailed on it and chalked it up to lessons learned. I have seven or eight handhelds going cheap. Anybody?

Regards
Dave

 

[FFP1]

Is it just me or does it seem like there is a recent trend in our industry with regard to inspections? I sincerely hope I do not make any enemies with these comments.

Seems like a significant number of sprinkler contractors have recently decided to implement or maybe expand inspection services (I assume because the installation side of the business has been slow). It seems like most companies are looking for a pain-free, quick & easy way to schedule, conduct and document the inspections...............wake up and face reality. Inspections take time and require a significant amount of effort by experienced & qualified employees. There is no MAGIC software or computer program which will allow your employees to complete inspections in 1/2 or 1/3 of the time………PERIOD! These MAGIC computer programs also will not allow you to send employees who are not knowledgeable out to conduct inspections (unless you do not care whether or not the inspections are thorough of course). However, these programs will potentially teach your good inspectors that they can cut corners and still leave the customer with the impression that a thorough inspection has been conducted.

I see this trend as a potential problem for our industry; companies should not send employees out to complete inspections unless the employees are qualified and properly trained. Most quality people require 2-3 years of on the job training (as an inspector, not as a pipe hanger!) and must pass NICET III in most states prior to obtaining the skill set to complete inspections of water-based fire protection systems. I also wonder (based on personal conversations and some blog comments) if all of the owners of these companies realize the liability associated with inexperienced inspectors. Not to mention the incomplete or inconsistent inspection forms.

The scope of the inspections (if done correctly in accordance with NFPA 25) and the requirements regarding "qualified inspectors" simply do not jive with hand-held bar code inspection software. Inspectors are not security guards simple walking by the sprinkler risers and scanning bar codes which confirm they were in the vicinity of the riser! So many people want the inspectors to complete a quick inspection and minimize report writing time. This approach is simply focused on "how can we make as much money as possible in the least amount of time and with the least amount of effort"............I call this the "construction worker mentality". This approach/mentality has no place in the sprinkler industry and we should all fight this approach/mentality whenever possible! This is my personal opinion of course.

Inspections require professional, honest, reliable, detailed employees with strong interpersonal skills in addition to the ability to write technical reports which very well might be used in a court of law one day.

I will go ahead and say what so many people in our industry are not saying:

An installer who cannot physically install sprinkler system piping any longer MIGHT be a potential candidate as an inspector; however, we all know that most of these guys are simply not prepared or capable of performing all of the job functions of an inspector. We all know it use to be common practice in our industry for pipe hangers to transition into inspections as they get older; most people in our industry realize this is a recipe for disaster. Most of these guys simply do not have the personality, computer skills or attention to detail required to become effective inspectors. Even the guys who possess the required traits would more than likely require a significant amount of training prior to sending him out to conduct inspections. Am I the only one who thinks this way??

 

[Jaxx66]

FFP1

I do understand where your coming from but we are just trying to keep servicing our existing clients and our NFPA13 just turned to NFPA25. We hand pick and hand train all of men from the time our company was established. Finding qualified men is going to be a problem. We are going to attempt to tackle by braking our mechanics out in the being and training men along the way as we will only hire 6-10 year guys that are out of work. One major sprinkler co. just went belly up and 80 very qualified men just hit the street running. I'm getting calls from them every day.

Personally not looking for a quick fix, but see the need for major help with electronic devises. But now seeing they are bad news so looking into different direction. "competent administrative assistant" is the right answers for alot of problems in your office and they make as much as a 638A man.

We are signing up between 3-5 existing accounts under the NFPA25 that are from 3-15 stories that never fell under the standard until the NYCFD and Insurance Co. are enforcing as of March 1, 2011. Wait until you see what will happen come January 1, 2012 when the W-12 are no longer. The NYCFD is going to go on a blitz during the 5 year hydro and residential flow and no one will be ready. Trying to be proactive but man & office power will become a problem very soon.

I.T. will have to come by and help.

THANKS FOR THE INFO- LIGHTECHO bid help.

JAXX

 

[ContractorDave]

FFP1

I've always found your posts intelligent and thoughtful and I agree with everything you've stated here, but methinks you may have a chip on your shoulder against computers on a whole that blinds you to the real advantages they bring to our industry. I absolutely agree with you that the barcode method is fundamentally flawed. I agree with you that it does NOT make a proper inspection - the actual inspection on site - any faster. But if you've been reading any of my posts above you know that's not where I find the value in computers, software and the internet.

My company is first and foremost an inspection company. We saw that building a solid client base and a solid reputation for doing the job right will give us, in the long haul, a solid cash flow in an almost recession proof industry. After that we began to dabble in specialty system installations like marine CO2, server room Novec systems, and foam systems. This helped us grow and my sprinkler division now has both an inspection and an installation side. We cross train to some degree but I usually find that installation gurus don't fit the profile of a good inspector. And usually don't want to.

Computers to me mean the end of endless reams of paper and files. It means much easier organization, compilation, and retrieval of documents. Cross referencing is a breeze. I keep files on line and on our secure backed up servers that have so much information you couldn't properly do it with paper. I'll go into a minesite and take hundreds of pictures for future reference and they're all easily stored. I can show inspectors going into those mines at a later date exactly what they're getting into and what and where to look.

Computers to me also mean overall organizational effectiveness. I can do job costing to see where I might be more efficient. I can easily pull up a similar project and use it to help on new tenders. And besides effectiveness, there's efficiency. Our accounting software (invoicing, paying bills, tracking PO's) is integrated with our Scheduling system (creating work orders, ordering material, dealing with subtrades). We don't miss making payments to suppliers and we don't miss sending out invoices and statements for finished jobs.... ok, it's not ALL perfect sometimes, but we're getting there.

Where computers become valuable during the actual inspection process is, as I stated above, they eliminate the paperwork, they become an excellent reference tool, they integrate pictures into the file, and they help me do my part in saving some trees.

Today I'm out of town in a small fly in community (Norman Wells NT). The hotel has a diesel fire pump with a Cutler Hammer FD100 series controller. On my arrival, the pressure on the controller read 139 psi. All three zone gauges read in the 80 psi range. My calibrated test gauge agreed with the zone gauges. I was able to call Cutler Hammer and have them e-mail me a page on how to recalibrate the transducer while I sat in front of it. Nice.

This is INDEED the trend of the future. Doing things properly, with integrity and the proper skill sets should not change because of it.

Regards
Dave

 

[NJ1]

I am not even going to comment because you all know how I get specially when concerning inspections, testing and maintenance.

FPP1
Your comment is straight forward as it can be. Thank you so much for being blunt and not hypocritical.

Jaxx66
This has being a problem for many years in NYC. When I worked at Simplex Grinnell in NYC I consider their Inspection department a freaking joke. Inspectors could only do visual because touching valves and flowing water is consider a union job rather than non union so inspectors where paid not more than 20 dollars an hour. Would you consider that qualified? Would you consider that well paid in the greatest city on America?
This industry has become a joke when it comes to inspections and testing since no one is actually reviewing such work while on site.
After a report is written no certified manager revisits the site because is not cost effective.
The other thing is that since claims are very seldom companies continue to take risks until a need to face a judge is required. After this they shutdown the inspections department for a couple of years until the heat cools off.

It is amazing what I see as an expert opinion advisor. A company just recently was served by the AG's Office and the first thing they asked was "please do not make these files go public"
What a joke.

Jaxx66
I am not sure what the new requirements in NYC is to be from an qualified individual stand point but I hope they start enforcing NICET level III like in Georgia. NYC is the most complex and complicated place on earth to perform testing of systems specially when it comes down to:
1) Fire Pump Test
2) 3rd and 5th year flow test of hydrants and pressure reducing valves
3) 5TH year hydrostatic test of dry standpipes
Etc.
The only requirement is what Jaxx66 mentioned which is called a
W-12 city wide certification. The test is a joke. Is like passing level of NICET. It is that bad

I hope we can all change for the better as an industry

 

[FFP1]

Lightecho:

Your posts are always informative and useful; you are a valuable contributor. I also want to state that I appreciate your kind words regarding my posts.

For the record: I might have sounded like I have a problem with computers, but this is not true at all. I am actually very computer savvy. I personally created all of our pricing rate schedules, inspection forms, contracts, and work assignment programs (I spent a SIGNIFICANT amount of time on these prior to starting my company from scratch) using Excel, Word, Access & Outlook. We enter the location number, name, address, telephone, etc. at one location and the information is automatically populated throughout all of the pertinent documents. All of or forms/documents are typed and electronic copies are emailed to our customers........our electronic forms are very professional and I consider them a significant competitive advantage. We use Quickbooks - Professional Services for our billing/invoicing. Almost all of our correspondence with customers is electronic.......I do not like fax machines (even though we have one for certain customers) and I also really like trees! Based on your comments above, you and I have taken a very similar approach in these areas.

I would say my problem is with people/companies who send unqualified employees out to conduct inspections on water-based fire protection systems and the fact that so many people on these blogs sound like they want a cookie cutter software program which will allow them to send inexperienced employees out to complete inspections while also completing the job tasks (inspections & report development) in a short period of time! I am somewhat tainted in this respect........I have personally witnessed WAY too many critical or important issues which were simply missed by inspectors from various sprinkler companies over the past 20+ years.

Too many people in our industry think inspections are easy money just waiting to be made (and most of us know there are way too many sprinkler contractors out there who have a history of sending unqualified employees to complete inspections)........the time and effort required to develop the forms, inspection contracts, work assignment programs, qualified inspectors, etc. is significant. I do not want people with the "construction worker mentality" involved on the inspection side of our industry. I would like to think the more professional people who take inspections seriously would agree with me regarding this topic. I am fairly certain lightecho, pipesnpumps, NJ1, Stookeyfpe and several other regular blog participants would tend to agree.

I decided to take the time to post these comments because I care and I truly want to make the people who do not take a professional approach regarding inspections to think twice or maybe even three times before they send unqualified employees out to conduct inspections. Just maybe my comments might make a minor difference somewhere out there...........

 

[ContractorDave]

Well FFP1

While we're passing around the kudos I'd like to say that you've contributed many well spoken posts. You parse your words with care whilst still managing to remain passionate.

"Just maybe my comments might make a minor difference somewhere out there...........

If a word is not spoken, a voice is not heard.

Regards
Dave

 

[ContractorDave]

Just to summarize and clarify this whole post, yes computers and software can make your business more efficient and therefore profitable. But the question is about "inspection software". From what I have seen and experienced, much of this software is based on other industries and not custom made for NFPA 25. Building Reports is a prime example. They have their own way of doing things and quite simply their reports and modus operandi are not consistent with that of our industry. Bar codes are, if anything, a detriment to the inspection process. Yes they may provide evidence that you were actually there. It doesn't prove you've actually done anything.

In saying this, nothing proves you've actually done what you are supposed to do. Most building owners wouldn't know an inspection properly done by a qualified firm from an inspection done by a fly by nighter. All one can do is do one's best, be honorable in your negotiations with others, and treat others as you would expect to be treated.

Regards
Dave