Not enough time... 2

[lacajun]

Well crud!

I lost out on an electrical job because I have no experience in that area. The GC can't afford the time for me to come up to speed even though the mechanical/structural design is incomplete and they don't break ground for 6 months. I spent all afternoon researching the equipment, how it works, talking with the manufacturers, looking over current electrical drawings, etc. and was enjoying having something new to learn. I figured out quite a bit by 4P, when he emailed his decision to look elsewhere.

This should highlight for the young people that even "experienced" engineers fall into the same traps they do. And, get experience in different areas, if you can, to grow as an engineer.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[SNORGY]

Something sounds like there was some kind of Old Boy Network thing going on behind the scenes. Don't know what brings me to that conclusion but it must fit some pattern I have seen before.

Was it something you really wanted to do or just a lost contract opportunity?

 

[arunmrao]

I quite agree,there can be behind the scene activity. Also,in my experience, independent consultants are used as door mats. As independent consultants,we are very fast in learning and adapting,a fact well recognized.

They promise about the apple,pick our ideas and suggestions and then quietly transfer to competition. How often, I have seen this happen,that now I am a confirmed cynic!

_____________________________________
"It's better to die standing than live your whole life on the knees" by Peter Mayle in his book A Good Year

 

[miningman]

In dont want to appear critical of Ms Quillan because some of her other posts seem professional and usefull, but and I quote "I lost out on an electrical job because I have no experience in that area" ??? Personally I have made it a lifetime career to avoid getting involved in things I know nothing about. Now Id be the first to admit that a lot of people appear to take the different approach of "I'll get the work and then worry about getting up to speed" but I tend to lose respect for such individuals very quickly.

In my opinion, an employer or a client is entitled to expect their hired help comes to the table with at least some familiarity on the subject matter. There is ample opportunity for on the job learning and professional upgrading during a working career.

Again this is not meant to be criticsm of the OP, merely advice for younger engineers still establishing themseves. r

 

[ScottyUK]

That was my initial reaction too miningman.

Maybe Pamela can clarify the extent of 'no experience in the area'. Or maybe highlighting what we are unsurprised about was the whole purpose of the post. I am slightly confused.

 

[lacajun]

I apologize for creating any confusion.

I posted it for the young engineers struggling to gain their first job because they have no experience. As an experienced engineer, you can run into the same issue. It's part of life.

I informed the GC that I have no experience in that area of EE but would be willing to learn and provide a more stable, friendly, flexible EE resource for him. We discussed this pretty thoroughly. He wanted me to learn the industry as a primary focus but I cannot because these jobs will not provide a consistent, significant source of income. Further, although I am older and have been out of school a long time, I am still alive and can learn.

I do not fault him for his decision. It's his company and his project. I don't think anything was going on behind the scenes. The owner doesn't want to give him time, which he complained about, but he's rolling that downhill to his subs. That's life. I wasn't surprised but I was a bit disappointed.

Lying about my experience is not what I am about. I recognize some lie but I don't as it goes against my Christian beliefs and rearing. I've owned up to every mistake I've made and that isn't easy because I have made some big mistakes especially in my personal life. I understand forgiveness because I've been forgiven of so much.

Some people appreciate my honesty and express it and others may think I am a fool. The latter category doesn't matter to me in the least.

I understand the value of a good reputation.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[ScottyUK]

Thanks for the explanation - much clearer now.

FWIW, I like your work ethics. I have zero tolerance for liars and bullshitters, and a lot of respect for people who aren't afraid to say "I don't know, but I'm willing to learn." I hope I am in the latter category and not the former.

 

[cranky108]

Someone once told me that the ego sometimes requires a much bigger car, than would normally be required. Not that I am implying this in the case of anyone here.
But some people have it in there heads they can do more than what they can actually acheve.
They don't intend to lie, but the results speak of something different.

I believe we all go through this at some point, and we must be humbled by reality.

However, for someone to make the same mistake more than once, shows a lack of learning ability.

It is one who has been humbled by reality that can say, I know my limits.

 

[lacajun]

cranky, egos can be a tricky thing. As one who will clean cruddy toilets and floors, my ego can fit inside of a car easily. I am learning disabled in many ways.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[zdas04]

I've gotten a bunch of jobs over the years with the client's understanding that I don't know enough about something, but I will know what I need to know before I start billing. Long time clients have no problem with this and know three important things: (1)no one knows everything; (2) the narrower one's experience is, the more they have to charge; and (3) knowing 70% of the necessary information on a project in context is often worth a lot more than knowing 100% out of context. I try really hard to avoid clients who can't comprehend these three important things.

The last point is a bit obscure so I'll provide an example. I am not an electrical guy, it really does feel like PFM to me. I had a project that was presented as a compression project, but the key uncertainties were the electrical driver (VFD or not, how much over design, what voltage to use, etc.). The packager was going to supply the EE expertise, but my client wanted enough knowledge within the project to prevent the packager from taking an inappropriate direction because he didn't understand the process. I took the job and started trying to educate myself on the key tripping points. The EE had never worked with compression before and made a bunch of recommendations that were based on the load being a LOT more cyclical than it really was (he was looking at the numbers for a single throw recip compressor when he was dirving a flooded screw compressor). He and I spent a day together mostly talking about how the compressor worked and what was important for the load--he went back and made some major design changes (cut the cost by over 1/3). Without someone on the project who understood the application (context) and was knowledgeable enough to speak coherently (70% knowledge) with the subject-matter expert (who had extensive knowledge) we would have paid far too much for an application that probably would not have worked instead of paying much less for one of the best running compressors I've ever seen.

On the other hand, I've often taken jobs that felt like I didn't have enough mechanical knowledge to do successfully. For example, I'm very comfortable working in ASME B31.8 (gas pipelines), but ASME B31.3 (plants) is a foreign language to me. When a client decided to modify a compressor station that had been built to B31.8 (which is legitimate), but wanted the changes to comply with B31.3 (which isn't wrong) I told him I wasn't sure what the difference was, and that it would take me a bit of time to get up to speed, he might want to find a plant engineer to do the modification. He said that all of the plant engineers had a sense of urgency that was not aligned with the project needs and would rather pay me to get up to speed. It worked out fine and everyone was happy, but it only worked because of full disclosure.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[cranky108]

I maybe wrong, but I believe I was misunderstood.
I said "Not that I am implying this in the case of anyone here".

My comment was about Scotty's comment 'I have zero tolerance for liars and bullshitters, and a lot of respect for people who aren't afraid to say "I don't know, but I'm willing to learn." '.

I do have a tolerance for those people who don't intend to get in over there head, but learn from it. I once left school with the belief I knew it all. Big headed and all.

 

[zdas04]

I call that "hire teenagers while they still know everything". I guess I was really lucky to have spent those years in a discipline where people who knew a lot would slap the snot out of people who thought they knew more than they really did. I got slapped down just about exactly the right number of times to give me a joy of learning without being afraid to admit I didn't know something.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[lacajun]

cranky, sorry if I came across as hypersensitive. Someone unexpectedly exploded on me during a phone conversation this morning. Maybe it influenced me more than I thought.

Like you, I had a degree of "man, I know some stuff" in spite of profs telling us to avoid that attitude. Whatever amount I had left quickly as I realized I didn't know enough in my first engineering job.

I watched fellow engineering students routinely ask questions about stuff they didn't understand. I learned they had some very good questions. The profs always told us to ask questions and strongly encouraged questions. One said the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[SLTA]

cheers, lacajun! lovely to have some real-world support!

 

[lacajun]

Slainté to you, sita! The feeling is mutual!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[cranky108]

I've always worked for smaller companies (at least in the engineering area), so I had no one to slap me down. I had to learn the hard way to not over extend myself. The key is to not always say yes I can do that (I would run out of time to do them all).

I had a boss once who wasen't an engineer, but a really great manager, and he would always say "Never suffer alone, call someone".

It helped many times.