OK, Here is the "Burning" question..

[smokehouse]

It seems like all we hear in the design business (dies, Molds) is go to 3d...Such as SW mainly.

My question is:

What percentage of tool designers are still using 2D Autocad??

And is this working ok for you?? Do you really want to go to 3D??

If you were going to buy a design package/software for tool design - would you buy Autocad?

 

[FH]

Dear smokehouse,
- All tool designers use AutoCAD.
- AutoCAD is very very useful in our die design and machine design projects. Also I would like to inform you, we are using AutoCAD widely in 3D design of machines.
- You need AutoCAD for die and mould desing, anyway. Other 3D design softwares are used to access the new CAM facilities, but, it do not make you independent of AutoCAD. You need the unique and incomparable drafting tools of AutoCAD.


Farzad

 

[smcadman]

We use several companies for custom plastic injection molds and they all are using Solidworks. I personally haven't used Solidworks, but we are told the built-in 3D capabilities for molds are supposed to be better than Inventor or any other Autodesk product. They send the Solidworks files directly to their EDM or CNC machines. Check out:

http://www.solidworks.com/pages/successes/Mold_Tool_and_Die.html

Flores

 

[Rentapen]

In our medium size tool, die, and special machine design house autocad 2d is the only way to cost effectivly be competitive. Since jobs shops are mostly all one-offs taking the time to make a 3d assembly does not make much sense. We do use customers sw and others models for our cnc smartcam and edm but thats far and in between. I can see sw for companys that do the same parts day after day we even have mechanical desktop but unless you do the same assemblies 2 and 3 times over, 2d cad or even the board is lots faster, especially if your dumping the files later on.

http://kingmachines.com/

just wandering
the rentapen

 

[smokehouse]

Rentapen,

You bring up a great point - that the board is faster.
I guess the younger designers would not agree with this but I sure do.
I can design an entire mold on a board faster anyday than 99% can on CAD..The trouble is of course, now you have to store paper instead of an electric file..
One reason I think is because on the board, you don't have to draw lines to a perfect geometry. Just show it close pictorally and add the right dimensions.
Another reason is because on a board you can see all the views quickly without toggling around the screen.

 

[Estassoc]

Smokehouse,

Can the drawing of the mold/dies be done
parametrically in 2D? If so, have you tried
writing a lisp program to do the task. I've
created a demo program that draws pressure
vessels/pipe flanges in 3D. I don't know if
the concept can be applied to your situation.
You can download the demo programs (3DPV.vlx
& 3DFLANGE.vlx) from

http://www.cadalog.com.

 

[smokehouse]

Estassoc,
I don't know of any 2d CAD program that is parametric.
Unlike SW where you sketch and add dimensions to adjst the geometry.
2d must be drawn dimensionally correct FIRST, then the dimensions are "pulled" from the geometry.

 

[Sirius2]

The 'board' is an archaic design method in a modern world, it doesnt matter if the job is a one off or not.

The wealth of data that can be exhumed from a digital design in 2d or more so in 3d far outweighs any apparent misguided 'fastness' on the drawing board.

Of course, if 'fag packet' sketches are how you want to run the 'design' office thats upto the company isnt it, but the majority of businesses need the digital world of CAD for other aspects such as fast modifications and compliance to ISO9004 standards. There is simply no argument for the drawing board in todays mechanical engineering world in my opinion.

Sure, if I wanted one of the guys on the shopfloor to make a pin or a bracket as a one off 'panic job', obviously a hand scribbled design is quick and sufficient to get the job completed and shipped back to the customer before dinner break - there would be no point drawing a fancy fully parametric 3d model of the pin or bracket and then issuing the drawing because the job just doesnt warrant it.

To undertake a full design on the drawing board today is a huge NO-NO in my opinion and reminds me somewhat of the luddites smashing the looms up in Lancashire mill towns, lol. Im afraid theres no going back, .

When a company's designer can not only define a 3d model of the tool, use that tool for manufacture purposes, encorporate fit form and function definitions to a die face and mating parts, detail that from the model and any updates automatically reflected in not only the 2d design layouts, but in manufacturing programs, its bound to blast out the water any rival shop using a drawing board or 2d design system.

Another aspect is the quility of Toolmaking staff, with todays freeform geometry and forms on dies of any kind, the tradional skills of being able to produce that part without an electronic model is fastly dying out, 2d design does not fill this gap either. Somebody somewhere at some point will have to redraw the majority of the job for CNC programming or wiring or whatever, and thats wasting time when the job could have been done from scratch that way.

If the process isnt fast enough, perhaps the staff are not trained effectively and/or are using the wrong product.

Now, after my heated debate, lol, my thoughts and questions on tool design:

I am very interested in this thread, beacuse we are reaching a point where we are needing to ditch our 2d software and replace it with either 2d Autocad Mechanical or even LT2004 or get a comination of 3d and 2d like the Inventor Series, or move to full 3d only design like Solidworks etc.
We design Jigs, Fixtures and prestooling (small stamped/formed automotive parts). There is STILL no dedicated CAD market for these disciplines in 3d modelling apart from very long winded and expensive applications, which even still, the majority cannot cope with deformed sheetmetal properly. There is a good one for solidworks as an addon, but thats about it.

Personally I would encourage a move to 3d if I was confident about the tools we had at our disposal, even if the jobs are 'one off', becuase the amount of times we 're use' designs for 'similar' jobs - even if the componet is different (ie keep the dieset, pillars, bushes, stripguides etc etc) is quite high, and the prospect of parametrically adapting jobs to suit new tools is very exiting, and not only that, with proper shape definition and less calculation (and error) trying to generate 2d views of what it may look like in a perticular orientation is bound to make the job run smoother and faster downstream from the design office.

Tool design (as in presstools) is still a long way lagging behind, and I have to admit that 2d is still an effective tool for this purpose and still deserves a rightfull place intil it can be fulfilled in 3d solids properly and cheaply.

I would be very interested to hear from other toolmaking designers who produce Jigs/fixtures and presstooling as to thier opinions on where things need to be going and what they feel is the best method regarding CAD.

If it was upto me, Id like to look at AutoCad Mechanical DX, where you have somewhat parametrical 2d design tools, and a feature tree of 'components' in 2d.....holes, shafts, views etc and the ability to use 3d views of the component model in the 2d design where you could potentially adapt your 2d design to the changes in the 3d model I suppose.

Anyway, Ive gone on enough .

Please take the time to answer the original question by Smokehouse, as its a hot topic with me personally.

Cheerio

Sirius2

 

[Sirius2]

Autocad Mechanical is worth a look at. I think you can even change a dim and the line adjusts.

Not sure if its truelly parametrical, but it kicks vanilla autocads arse in 'smartness' or intelligence of designs from what I have seen.

Sirius2

 

[smokehouse]

Sirius2,

I mentioned the speed of board drawing - not to say that I still use it..I don't anymore.

We use a combo of SW and 2d. The model of the part comes in 3d. Then we cut sections and import it via DXF to a 2d drawing for the floor..WHY?
Because we still find this faster.

It would be more efficient to design the entire mold/die in SW I know, but there never seems to be enough time to do this. 2d is simply faster, and speed is the name of the game -- at least where I work.

If cutter paths need to be generated, then we go back to the 3d model for this and is done in Surfcam..

 

[Sirius2]

Smokehouse, I wasnt being personal, its just I hear the same old 'it was better on the drawing board' gripe all the time at work by shall we say 'ex board dwellers' who arent into computers lol. There is no argument for the board, its well and truelly dead, and good riddance too!!!. I never beleive it was faster, just less detailed and often ambiguous and left more for the shopfloor to sort out the finer details.

I fully agree that (at the minute) 2d is still fast and effective for tool design. I would have expected mold tool design to be all done in 3d because of the complexity of the shapes and the vast array of 3d parts available and table driven 'work horses' to use as 3d templates for new tools.

We design in 2d our presstools and fixtures....however doing business in an increasing 3d world is becoming a chore in itself, and to be honest, if I didnt bring my own CAD tools into work we would have been very very stuck on too numerous occasions. I think for Presstools that require complex forms and for similar fields of engineering that a mixture of 2d and 3d is the most effective way.
I do the 3d design of the parts that require CNC'ing on the 2d designs by the other dafters - it can be quite a ballache when the 2d designers 'estimate' what a perticular part may look like in a view when you are trying to interpret thier design. We dont have the luxury of 'product design' models like in plastic molding industries. We only have a crude surface/wireframe 3d system and its a nightmare. If the tools were designed by the designers of the tool in 3d, it would save so much time later on its unreal. Its a balance between differen aspects and responsibilities - sure the draffy can whip up a 2d design pretty fast.......but if that causes the person who has to produce 3 dimensional models of that design for manufacture and triples his time sorting out what it should look like or whataever, its money lost. You can get your job done fast and look efficient, yet some other poor sod who has to use the 2d design is going to be under strain in today's fast paced turn-around of jobs.

We are still 2d, I would love to go full 3d, but Id be happy with a combination of the two, and use the tools effectively for the task in hand. If its a complex fixture thats hard to draw in 2d use the 3d, and if its a simple component for a one off use 2d....but saying that Ive managed to draw simple fixtures in less time than a 2d method in the past in solidmodellers, and not only that, but improved the design through better visualiastion (ie simplification of the design)....ideas Id never have thought of looking at three seperate view projections!

See ya

Sirius2