online masters for chemical engineers 4

[dude19]

I am located in the northeast and am on the fence with grad school. The local schools I could attend would be like Villanova, Drexel, University of Delaware, or Rowan.

I have also been looking for online programs and have found USC, Columbia, Lehigh, and Stanford.

What is the general outlook on advanced degrees. It seems like the poor job market is going to keep new grads in school for more advanced degrees.

Would it be better to pick an online big name school that will look weird on my resume or just do a local masters program?

 

[FeX32]

I suggest you do not undertake an online masters. It simply is not the same thing.
You miss the core so to speak of being in a lab building/performing/analyzing your own experiments ect.



Fe

 

[ggordil]

I was looking into this option for a while. Then the market went belly up and I didn't feel like paying for grad school any more.

From what I found, Kansas State, MIT, and Auburn all offer 100% on-line non thesis Master of Chemical Engineering Degrees.

Of those, I thought Auburn was the best because I am in the south and it has a very good reputation here. Also, it was the most affordable and they give you up to 5 years to finish. That works out to once class a session, 3 sessions a year.

When I talked to engineers in my firm, they all told me that having MIT on my degree was not worth the extra money I would have to pay for the degree. In their opinion, what is worth more money is experience not what school you went to. Basically, I wouldn't make more money with an MIT vs an Auburn degree.

Just one more thing. I would not disclose on my resume that I got my masters online. I would just put what school I went to and when I finished. If asked I would, but it seems like the people who are doing the hiring seem to have a sense that online learning isn't learning. I think that will change eventually as baby boomers retire.

 

[FeX32]

It might. But there are guys like me that are not even close to the babyboomers era that totally agree with their point of view.
But that's just my opinion.



Fe

 

[ash9144]

I've seen the products of online degrees, Both MBA and "engineering". They are not even close to comparable in education quality. Not only would I not give credit to someone for online degree, I would penalize them for having it.

 

[ggordil]

Where I live, it is impossible to work and get a masters degree in chemical engineering. In addition, I get paid more than other engineers that have masters degrees because I have several years more experience than they do. So, if I quit my job to get my degree, I will have years less experience than others and in turn I will make less.

I looked in to Auburn's program. The classes are the same. You are responsible for watching the videos of the lectures. Homework is the same, except it gets emailed in. Exams are the same (You have to find someone in your area to proctor). You have finals just like everyone else. At the end of your studies you have to report for a two hour written exam and a two hour verbal exam before you get your degree.

I think that the idea that online degrees are worthless, regardless of what the program is like, only serves to discourage people from furthering their education. I would love to take years off of work and just study but the reality is, that it is a move that will do more damage to my career than it will help.

One more thought, I work with two engineers who both have their masters at a "real" school and I can run circles around them.

My point is, your education is what you make of it. You can slack your way through an online degree and you can slack your way through a regular degree. Or you can put just as much effort into an online degree as you do into a traditional one.

 

[davidbeach]

I fail to see how an off-campus (better description than online) degree is any less of an accomplishment than an on-campus degree. The course work is the same, the homework is the same, the exams are the same. Where is the problem?

 

[FeX32]

In my opinion there is no way you can write a thesis in your kitchen the same way you can in a lab with the universities equipment. Big difference.

Fe

 

[davidbeach]

There are thesis Masters Degrees (MS) and non-thesis Masters Degrees (ME). The ME is probably more practical for those who want to earn a degree while working full time, whether on- or off-campus. The MS is the more conventional route for those who have the luxury of not requiring an income.

 

[HamishMcTavish]

FeX32 and ash9144 - seems there is bit of prejudice against distance learning here...question is why?

Aside from access to lab equipment (and there are ways around that like summer schools) what is the process of teaching / learning ?

1) Background reading list provided prior to course depending on your qualifications - requires the student to have the motivation to do this regardless of whether they are full time attendance or not
2) lectures where someone directs your learning via Q&A sessions / problem setting and feedback - this can be achieved by a variety of means
3) practical sessions to develop understanding of theory
4) seminars / sessions with other students to talk around the subject
5) exams and/or thesis

Each of these can be carried out by full time attendance or via distance learning although the distance learning is a more difficult option as it's reliant on lecturers giving timely feedback to questions / problem sets.

Lab time is difficult to sequence in distance learning although not impossible. Does this make distance learning a poor way to do things? Probably not and some subjects easier to this with than others.

The UK has had the Open University since the 70s and many of the degrees are well regarded - they now offer masters courses in several areas. There is a WORLD of difference between a properly organised distance learning course and a website where you pay your $50 or £50 and get a bogus certificate.

If somebody came to me with a masters from a distance learning program which they have balanced with a normal working day i think that shows a strength of character / requires additional motivation to stick through it and an ability to be self sufficent.

ggordil's last point that it depends on the person hits the nail on the head. it's the person you would be hiring not the qualification

regards, HM


No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam

 

[FeX32]

All good points. Although, I know that generally the thesis based M.Sc. is much more reputable then one that is not thesis based as the thesis is the only portion that illustrates scholarly work. I know from my own M.Sc. that a thesis would be difficult to undertake if you are not in the Lab everyday. Of course, if your thesis has no experimental or physical attributes then we can categorize this as philosophy and not engineering. Although, in a lot of programs you learn the most from actually trying to implement your hypothesis. I find it hard to see how a distance program offers an equivalent academic experience in this way.
Just my opinion,



Fe

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

FeX32,

Responses to a few of your points:

1) A thesis would be difficult to undertake if you are not in the Lab everyday.

"Lab experience" is important, but many people working on off campus degrees spend their day job working in a lab. I know that there are few univeristies I could go to that have better facilities then the lab I work in. And I know of a few distance program that coordinate with your employer so that you can work on a thesis related to your work. This to me seems even superior to a typical on comapus thesis as the comapny can often devote more resources that a grad student will receive.

2) If your thesis has no experimental or physical attributes then we can categorize this as philosophy and not engineering

What about someone working on modeling, simulation, or other computational engineering? There are a lot of very good engineers and scientists that only need a powerful computer to do their work. It's absurd to say this isn't engineering.

 

[davidbeach]

Yeah, staged faults are really difficult to get approval for, so most power system protection work involves more computer simulation than lab work. Not all branches of engineering are the same. Had I gone the MS route rather than the ME route, I would have had fewer classes and the thesis work would have been done almost entirely on computer simulations. Again, one size does not fit all.

 

[FeX32]

I myself work with modeling, simulation, and computational engineering. But you have to know how to put these to work otherwise you are half the engineer. This is not exactly what I was saying......

Fe

 

[FeX32]

I can't believe we are arguing about online degrees. I agree only with the point that it is what you make of it online or not. However, I think many would agree that nowadays the chance of getting a 'good' engineer out of an online degree is less then the latter. End of story.

no point trying.....


Fe

 

[KirbyWan]

Howdy all,

I graduated with a BS in mechanical engineering from Kansas State in 2006 and would like to share my experience with distance learning.

Almost all of my classes were in person with one exception. I took a 700 level intermediate fluid dynamics class which being for graduate credit also was taught online. This meant that the instructor posted a video lecture a couple times a week which had a PDF next to the video of the instructor that he could annotate while speaking (a white board). I had the same instructor for Thermo II and he is a good instructor, but take a moderatly interesting lecturer in person and watch a video of him without an audience to interact and he becomes painfully boring. I had to stand at my computer to get through the lectures without falling asleep. I didn't care for the Nunn book either, but that's a different issue. This was the worst class I had at K-State. Even with a one hour recitation in person with the instructor every week I felt cheated.

At the same time I regularly visit MIT's Open Course Ware website at ocw.mit.edu. I purchased the Linear algebra book by Gilber Strang that is used with his set of video lectures. He's a dynamic speaker and with the ability to watch him interact with the class it is a pleasure to watch. It's not perfect. The Chemistry lectures suffer from a lot of information being presented on power point presentations that are not visible on the video lecture. I don't know if there graduate degree lectures are presented the same way. I expect they are not just because of the cost involved in having multiple cameras for one class. I'm also a big fan of the lectures presented by The Teaching Company for non technical subjects such as history and philosophy. Simply put prerecorded lectures can be effective.

With that background I would like to say that an Online masters degree is o.k. I do think being in class with an instructor and group of students that you can work with is more optimal, but I don't think it essential. I might not say the same for an undergraduate degree, but the candiates going for a masters degree are older, more mature and more focused, not to mention more likely to have additional responsiblites such as a job and a family. I also know that the quality of an online course is going to be based on the instructor and the system used for lectures.

A lot of universities are heading this way just because of the economic requirements to compete. Once an online system is in place the incremental cost of another student is much less then the cost of tuition. The non-thesis masters degree is also becomeing much more popular, though I don't feel qualified to comment on the merits of thesis vs. non-thesis degrees.

I would still recommend K-state even with my bad experience. I knew quite a few instructors in the Chemical Engineering department and the school has a good reputation. I feel my experience was out of the ordinary and had multiple causes, some my own. And with a few more years of Online experience I think the quality of this type of instruction to increase. I plan on getting my MS some day as well and though I want the on campus experience I may opt for an online degree.

Sorry for the book,

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[GregLocock]

Kirby - how did you handle labwork for the fluids course? I can imagine that fluids without labwork would be excruciatingly dull even with a meatworld lecturer.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[KirbyWan]

There was no labwork. And yes it was a snooze fest. Basicly the class was going over the derivation of Navier-Stokes and an introduction to compressibility effects, and some simple results. I remember writing a paper on the Blassius solution and wrote a program for the numerical solution using RK4. They introduced us to tensor notation, which looked like a good idea, but never managed to grasp it. Quite frankly most of the time I barely understood what was going on. It wasn't the high point of my college days. Luckily I felt much better about my other course work.

-Kirby

Kirby Wilkerson

Remember, first define the problem, then solve it.

 

[jpankask]

I completed my MS in Mechanical Engineering through Kansas State through the distance learning program. Kirby, probably a lot of your frustration had to do with taking a 700 level class as an undergraduate. I took a 700 level class as an undergraduate and a lot of it I didn't understand until I was partway through my MS with some more supporting background. Granted, during my MS I did have to sit through watching several lectures where it was very difficult to stay awake. The nice thing about watching a recorded lecture was that I could re-watch portions I didn't understand or needed a little more reinforcement.

The distance learning graduate program is non-thesis but you do have the option of a master's report, which is a detailed evaluation/writing project which is on the order of a thesis in length, just without the independent experimentation. If you are not going on to a doctoral program, or working in a job that requires experimentation, I believe the experimentation/thesis is a waste of time when you can be learning other more useful information. I had exactly the same homework as the students "on-campus". I took exactly the same exams and I had to meet before my master's committee to discuss my final report and they had the option to ask me questions about anything I was supposed to have learned over the course of my studies, which they did.

I think, perhaps wrongly, that when you say the words "online degree", most people think of the non-accredited, non-brick and morter schools that offer online degrees in any area you can think of (no names offered but we all can name a few). The truth is there are many reputable universities that now offer degrees through distance learning means (online, dvd, etc.). These are very beneficial for people who want to further their education but cannot take a year or two off to go to school part time, usually far away from where they live. I agree that you do not get the laboratory experience through distance learning, but there are many programs that do not require laboratory work and many, many more careers where you will not step foot in a laboratory. I would much rather have an extra class or two in advanced fluids or thermodynamics (which I might use) than to have spent a semester wasting time on developing a hypothesis and testing that hypothesis with experiments, simply because I will never use that knowledge/information. Certainly, if I were going on to get a doctorate or work in a national lab or something, the experimentation and thesis would be very beneficial (but then I probably wouldn't have been considering a distance learning degree in the first place).

So bottom line is, those who say it's not the same thing or that one thing is more reputable than the other either don't understand or haven't experienced distance learning. At the MS level, you can learn just as much, or more, than being on campus. You also learn discipline and self-study techniques because you are responsible for making sure you learn the materials to complete the homework and exams. I think the experience has helped me immensely in my career.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

jpankask,

I think you make a few very good points. Particularly:

"The nice thing about watching a recorded lecture was that I could re-watch portions I didn't understand or needed a little more reinforcement."

I think this would actually be a very valuable resource (recordings of all lectures available) even if you were taking a class on campus.