Opinions on PipeSim vs. PipeFlow or any other surface piping software 3

[InTheMoney]

Any experiences out there on which is the better or preferred pipeline simulation software?

Looking at application for typical oil field development, 3 phase flow.

Something that is user friendly and relatively accurate.

Also, contact details of any retailers.

Thanks

ITM

 

[zdas04]

You're asking an indeterminate question. A few years ago I went to the trouble to acquire 5 top-rated programs and build a model of two different gathering systems into each. Since this was several years ago, I will not list the programs I tested (many of the problems I found have been corrected in intervening releases). I only found one that could be calibrated to match observed data on both systems and that is the one I use to this day (it is no longer for sale since the manufacturer went out of business).

The exercise was really useful. Some of the bonehead things I found were:
- One program had a built in bias to flow from low-numbered nodes to high-numbered nodes. This bias eliminated an excelent system modification because it wouldn't allow reverse flow. You can find this error by building a test model, running it, renumbering the nodes, and run it again -- if the output from the two runs are not identical then "Houston we have a problem" and I would reject the program without further testing.
- One program had an (undocumented) limit of 5 loop lines (one of my systems had 35).
- One program came to an Abnormal End (ABEND with indeciferable code) if you used the capability to loop a line and end up in a different point than the first line ended.
- Several programs lacked the "knobs" to "tweak" the program into compliance with the observed data (i.e., you couldn't do a calibration run).
- One of the systems had two off-take points and they would reverse the flow in the pipe between them with 1/2 psi change in one of the pressures -- three of the five programs would fail when the flow reversed.

You will be using this program to predict the outcome of millions of dollars of construction -- relying on the old adage "if its on green-and-white, its right" is simply irresponsible.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The Plural of "anecdote" is not "data"

 

[InTheMoney]

Thanks... but the response doesn't help me out at all with respect to any of these programs ! Actually, i am at an already operating facility that does continuous development work. Currently, NOTHING is being used other than just a general prevailing attitude of 'build it big' to cover ones arse. So, little to no pipeline engineering or optimization is being done. THe very low velocities in the pipes cause other operational issues (slugging, traps, deposits of precipitates, unevean distribution of chemicals, etc...) so I am trying to bring in and implement a better system.

No program will be perfect, but other than using free internet availabe 'quick calc' programs or working from 1st principles and literature, was looking for a decent program that will cover most of our needs.

ITM

 

[zdas04]

InTheMoney,
I have to keep reminding myself that the world is a very large place with many cultural norms. Statements which are perfectly civil in one culture can be perceived as offensive in another. I'm sure that where you are at it is acceptable to use exclaimation points and all caps when rejecting free advice that you had solicited, I'm just being overly sensitive to take offense at it.

I'm quite sorry that you found my response worthless - I guess you get what you pay for. Maybe someone else will get some value from it.

David

 

[InTheMoney]

David, no need to be sorry. I look at it as if somebody was looking for feedback on HYSIM vs. some other program. Heck, Lemonaide.com, etc... do reviews on cars, cameras, stereos, etc... from users.

I am trying to solicit folks out there that may be users of certain programs, and then to simply indicate some opinion of which programs they liked or did not like, some reasons or good/bad points, and a suggested retailer.

The review you provided is informative, but with no mention of the programs, hard to gleen anything from it. For example, I can say I have used HYSIM for process simulations and SULSIM for Sulphur Plant Optimization and found both very useful.

For pipelines, from my review, seems like PipeFlow and PipeSim are popular. PipeSim is also offered through Schlumberger Technical Services as part of a package (it can do much more than just flowlines).

Am looking for user feedback. How was that, no exclamation marks ! Ok.... one.

ITM

 

[CRG]

I have to agree with zdas04, get demo programs and try them. Most vendors will give you a fully functional 30 day demo if you contact their sales office. Verify the accuracy of the programs by comparing them to each other as well as hand calculations. Purchase the program that has the best value for your company: product support, cost, accuracy, and ease of use. I have found unacceptable accuracy with some programs I tested; however, not the ones you specifically mentioned.

If you saw a positive or negative post here, how would you know if it is valid or just an affiliate with the vendor’s program?

 

[InTheMoney]

Well, CRG, I would have to rely on my experience and intuition to pick up that it was an outfit flogging his software or a user with some objective opinions. I can ask you the same thing, how do you know your Government is telling you the truth?

Like I said, I work in a difficult environment (North Africa) where support and ease of communication is not at ones fingertips. I have tried to contact BakerJardine and associates, who are listed as suppliers of PipeSim, with no response. Have tried another one as well, same result. Maybe it is the Christmas period that is holding up the responses. Yep, I would love to get Demos if I knew where the suppliers are, what options are out there and who are the suppliers.

That is why I was reaching out to this forum, for some of this information. How can I ask for a Demo of a program that I do not know exists, let alone do not know the supplier?

The only two I have heard of is PipeFlow and PipeSim.

The environment I am in is tough, but the money is great.

Regards,

InTheMoney

 

[DrillerNic]

I used to use NMS's PipeFlo for multi-phase steady state hydraulics and I preferred it to Pipesim, but that could just be becasue Pipeflo was the first hydraulic simulator I used! The version of Pipesim that I saw few years ago couldn't do cooldown calculations (which were useful for subsea pipelines), whereas Pipe Flo could. Pipesim may have added it since. Also, Pipeflo will let you pay for the programme per run, as well as on a monthly (or whatever) basis.

As for accuracy, most of the simulators use published correlations, flow maps and equasions of state, so provided there's no hidden problems in the prgramme such as those described by Zdas, then it's up to you to pick the best EOS, correlation etc.

Pipesim is now part of SLB, who in my experience, don't always have a great track record in supporting their software (the OFM helpdesk is appalling- I often seem to know more about it than they do!) so that may be an issue.

Another steasdy state pipeline simulator I'm aware of is Pipephase, which I've never used. Someone here may have some user experience of Pipephase to pass on.

 

[InTheMoney]

Thanks DrillerNic,

Yes, I submitted a request to BigBlue about 2 weeks ago, tried calling, sent 3 e-mails. No response. Again, maybe because it is around Christmas. But based on this, I have to agree with your comments from my experience to date.

Will keep trying to find a supplier for PipeFlo and try to compare the two.

Thanks.

ITM

 

[Alph]

In the UK North Sea sector, Pipesim/Pipesim-Net is widely used for steady state hydraulic & thermal Analysis. It is quite user friendly, but occasionally come across convergance problems especially for networks.

I have also used Pipephase (SimSci) in the past, it was less user friendly, but fewer convergance issues.

Good understanding of flow assurance issues is required, as selection of the correltaion could have a bigger impact than the software simulator.

For Transient analysis (cooldown, warm-up, depressurisation etc.) Olga is used.

Al