Outsourcing China

[Chinapressurevessel]

Hello all,
I am Terman Leung from China Jiangmen Xinxing Machinery Factory,which specialize in pressure vessel production.
Nice to meet you all here.
Do you guys have ever experience in China outsourcing work?
What's your main concern when outsource work to Chinese supplier ?
I look forward to hear your value comment.

Terman

 

[metengr]

What's your main concern when outsource work to Chinese supplier ?

Quality, design and material.

 

[deanc]

Mr Leung

The PRC has made great strides in production and quality over the past ten years. I would also say that most of the private citizens I have met were a pleasure to deal with.

However, you have requested "concerns".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070814/ap_on_re_us/toy_recall;_ylt=AlZ2NH5MXEUJrwhxFYxwbO2s0NUE

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070809/ap_on_re_us/tainted_toothpaste_4

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=172967

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1992/in92068.html

These are a few items, but enough.

 

[SnTMan]

metengr, no concerns beyond those?

Mike

 

[MJCronin]

Herman...

Above and beyond those reponses posted above, informally the Repubic of China has been developing a long reputation for sub-standard materials.

There is simply too much risk for a US/Canadian vessel fabricator to utilize materials from China, with ASME/ASTM stamps that mean nothing...

When the lawyers come to the door and

 

[MJCronin]

Sorry, My machine was cut off the network...

Herman...

Above and beyond those reponses posted above, informally the Repubic of China has been developing a long reputation for sub-standard materials.

With newer supercritical powerplants operating at higher temperatures and pressures, material cerification takes on a life-or-death importance

There is simply too much risk for a US/Canadian vessel fabricator to utilize materials from China, with ASME/ASTM stamps on components that mean nothing... The force of tort and contract law stops at the US borders

When the lawyers come to the door and sue, having a sheet of paper (C of C) that means nothing is no defense

For a scary glimpse of the future (and not a small amount of poetic justice)see this link:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=172967&page=1

My opinion only..

-MJC

-MJC

 

[Chinapressurevessel]

Dear Sirs,
Thanks for your all inputs.
And to MJC,my first name is Terman not Herman.

It is a undeniable fact that China is flooded with fake products and inferior materials.Because China is such a large country which have over 1.3 billion population and still in a developing phase,it is not possible that every supplier will keep the quality as the first element.
However you shouldn't have a prejudice to all the Chinese suppliers,there are still some good ones which insist to offer the first class product to clients.
Our company dont wanna to make a quick buck,cause that will hurt ourself finally.

We aim at long-term benefits not just a one-time deal.

Terman

 

[deanc]

Terman

I am pleased you responded, inspite of the criticism. It is unfortunate that honorable people must suffer for the ones who are not.

To reverse this your country must implement and enforce quality standards for export. Then you must establish a proven track record. There are reports of more sub-standard Chinese pipe flanges in the USA as of today.

The requirments to export boilers or pressure vessels to China are very stringent. The license reviews are very expensive and a ordeal. One can only wonder what drives this.

I wish you luck, but there comes a time when cheaper is more expensive.

 

[stanweld]

Terman,
The Chinese pressure vessel industry is essentially in a similar position as that of the Republic of Korea during the late 1970's and 1980's or Japan in the late 1950's and 1960's. Often times too much money is left on the table by the bidders (potential suppliers) resulting in quality reducing, cost cutting measures. Many times, I saw 5 to 10 million dollars left on the table by Korean manufacturers relative to European and US manufacturers. Fortunately we (the purchaser) provided effective surveillance and engineering aid to assure compliance with our requirements and still save millions. Sometimes we did not and paid a higher price after.

Quality can be obtained if appropriate vendor surveillance and necessary engineering guidance is provided by Purchasers. Due to today's multitude of fixed price contracts, the need for the above is often overlooked by Purchasers/Owners, who (wrongly) expect appropriate quality without the added expense of full or part time inspection, etc. Because of these purchasing issues, Chinese vendors must urgently upgrade the repeatable quality of their products and the providers of inferior and unsafe equipment must be weeded out from the export market.

 

[waskillywabbit]

Poisonious pet food and cough syrup.
Toxic toys and pajamas.
Inferior quality materials and non-existent quality control on countless other items. I feel that the western media has only begun to discover the tip of the iceberg that will sink the "Made in China" Titanic.


Brian

 

[diskullman]

One of my major concerns is the level of quality of life we are supporting in buying products from China. Maybe I am a very conservative liberal, but I do not agree with the way that the Chinese government treats people, and I see that situation getting worse with the newfound freedom in China. This is agovernment that limits how many children a couple may have, and will force abortions upon parents. I still have pictures burned in my memory of Chinese tanks running over protesters in Tianamin square, crushing their heads like watermelons. This country, once considered Communist, with everyone treated equal, jobs provided, and free health care is now separating into a few rich and many poor. Some very ugly changes are happening there with all that money. I don't really want to bear any responsability buy supporting these actions by buying Chinese goods, but I have very little choice with many consumer products these days, and I cannot afford some of the domestic alternatives.

Russell Giuliano

 

[weeeds]

I have just come across a problem with a couple SA105, not normalized, WN flanges.
One 24" 150# RFWN flange was welded onto the end of a 24" rolled shell, and a 20" 150# RFWN flange was welded to a nozzle. The 24" flange has a longitudinal crack half way up the hub, about 1" long. We started excavating it but were told to stop by our customer so we do not know how deep it is, but it did not go all the way through.
The 20" flange is the real mystery. At hydro we noticed water leaking from the nozzle and saw a circumferential crack in the neck of the flange, about 3/16" from the weld. The crack is in the forging and is about 4" long.
Both items will be examined to determine the cause of failure and we should get a report later this week.
Both flanges were made in China.
Has anyone else experienced any such failures recently?

 

[israelkk]

widla

The problem is not that the parts had cracks. This can happen to every manufacturer. The problem is that it was supplied with the cracks without checking or worst with falsified documents. We had bad experience with cracked raw metal bars for aerospace use manufactured in the USA. There are cases where bad management in the USA falsified tests results for cracked parts for nuclear use and a movie was even made as the result of such a case.

Therefore, both parties the supplier and the buyers share the blame. Both are trying to save money and do not do their job in inspection, design and approval. If you want a trusted supplier you have to educate him and closely monitor every aspect of his actions until he is fully approved and know what he is expected off. You have to keep scheduled and unscheduled inspections to make sure nothing goes wrong over time.

 

[deanc]

Widla

They are back. I have reports of more defective (slugged) Chinese flanges in the US. I will share info. when I can.

The past:

http://cisgw3.law.pace.edu/cases/990330c2.html

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/gen-comm/info-notices/1992/in92068.html

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/fod/oc/300-399/308_7.pdf

 

[MJCronin]

deanc..

With regard to the A105 Chinese flanges in the EBASCO case (your first reference) it is both interesting and signifcant that the court noted:

"The [Buyer] pointed out that the quality problems of flanges could not be found by testing. Certain potential deficiencies (e.g., not having gone through normalizing heat treatment) could only be found after installation, operation or test of consumption."

This is my point....... The Chinese know that heat treatment is not an "inspectable" quality.

They know that certain expensive ingredients or proceedures will "slip through" in order to facilitate commerce.

Contrast this with an American supplier who is "scared stiff" of a legal suit for consequential damages and could incur massive court fines if someone were injured or killed.

The Chinese simply do not have this concern because, if shoddy products are discovered, the matter just ends up in an international court for many, many years..

My opinion only


-MJC

 

[vesselguy]

Mr Leung,

Your question is, "Do you guys have ever experience in China outsourcing work?"

Personally, I have not worked on a project where equipment were purchased from China. However, from my co-workers, I do know of a current situation with a Field Fab Tank Erector from China working here on a project. This Contractor had two fatality due to the tank roof structure collapsing on the workers, and a second tank also collapsed with no injuries. It was a result of sloppy Quality Control and poor Project Management/Execution. I won't go any further on this since there is a pending investigation report coming out and it would be irresponsible for me to talk more on it until it does.

Also, another former co-worker have told me stories of a job he recently worked on in which he was acting as the Owner's Engineer (The Owner happens to be a Mainland company) to spec and purchase a 2.25Cr reactors from another Mainland Chinese fab shop. He got a free trip to China to view the shop. However, the last time I talked to him, he said he asked the Owner for the RFQ package so he can know what are the specs for the reactors which the Owner already purchased without his input. It would be nice to know what you are expected to review in the future, right? Well the Owner said there was NO RFQ package and specs. Looks like someone paid someone and the reactors were purchased without specs!!!!!!!! That's the last I heard of it from my former co-worker.


What's your main concern when outsource work to Chinese supplier ?

My concern is Quality Control/policy and the lesser quality of technical experience from the engineers there. I have experience working with South Korean and Indian fabricators. I share the same concerns for these other countries when I buy from there, but I would elevate these same concerns much higher with Chinese fab shops simply due to personal experience with the Mainland Chinese Engineers I have worked with in this country, and from the above stories.

Also, I find that Mainland Chinese have a tendency to "not listen"; they keep on talking without listening. This is a major fault and it will cost you business with foreigners.


For Others:
My recommendation to others purchasing services or equipment from China would be to include funds to provide your own (read fly-in fly-out your own company people) full time Equipment (vessel) Engineer, part-time Welding Engineer, and a full time Shop Inspector to stay at the shop for Quality Asurance purpose. You have to look over the Vendor's shoulder and make sure they are doing what you want them to do. You should not be discouraged to purchase from China but know the risk, and put in the risk management plan that I mentionded above. The Blame Game goes two-ways: The fault is not always just to one side. If the Purchaser is not wise enough to put in proper QA then he is also at fault.

 

[weeeds]

Further to comments from both MJCronin and vesselguy, the trap that I see is that components such as flanges are not usually purchased by us directly from the manufacturer. We, as ASME fabricators, have a responsibility to audit our suppliers (distributors) to ensure that "we get what we paid for". It is then the responsibility of the distributor to perform that same due diligence on their supplier (master distributor or manufacturer) This, I believe, is where things start to fall apart.
Is this due diligence being performed or are parts purchased from the cheapest source regardless of the reputation of the supplier? Are the MTRs real or doctored to suit?
What recourse do we have if defective/non-compliant parts are found? The only thing I see is to get replacements from the supplier (with certainty that the parts are genuine) and absorb the rework charges in order to avoid legal problems. The culprits though get away clean unless they are identified and exposed.
Is my thinking wright or am I missing something?