Overcoming disadvantages in joining a non-accredited company training. 1

[Radionise]

Getting oneself onboard a company with an accredited (by relevent engineering institutions, i.e. IChemE) graduate training scheme is seen as a big surplus to a prospective graduate engineer. Having said that, there are also companies which have structured graduate training programmes but don't have the accreditation from relevent institutions although their business is completely relevent to that profession.

Obviously there isn't any saying that getting onboard a non-accredited company training scheme will be a big hindrance towards chartership through relevent institutions. However, I do believe there are still substle cons, or perhaps even pros compared to joining an accredited scheme.

How should one who just joined such company as a graduate employee plan his or her way throughout the coming 3, 4 or even 5 years to gain chartership? In what aspects should he/she be relatively proactive? What extra efforts should be put in?

Do share your thoughts and experience.

Thanks.

 

[GregLocock]

Don't sweat it. Any company graduate training scheme will get you where you need to be as an outcome from your first job. Get the relevant documentation from the Institute and make sure you write it up to suit those requirements.

I don't think you can really get chartership in 3 years after leaving uni. In fact I'd like to see the minimum age put back to 32, at least for mechanical engineering. Of course that doesn't suit many people's agendas.




Cheers

Greg Locock

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[ScottyUK]

The old structured scheme as implemented by the former IEE allowed the training period to be roughly halved compared with ad-hoc experience. I'm not sure what is going on under the SARTOR 3 process. If the employer is a smaller company and doesn't offer a structured program, try to find one with a chartered engineer on the staff, even if they aren't from your discipline. One from the 'Big Four' - civil, chemical, mechanical or electrical - would be the best as they are probably the most widely recognised. Some of the other institutions might be accused of, erm, selling chartership or something tantamount to it. Encourage that person to act as your mentor if possible.

I think the longer period taken by the ad-hoc method probably leads you to be a more rounded, worldy individual which will help if you get a tough interview. I agree with Greg that there should be a minimum age requirement, in addition to the minimum academic and training requirements.

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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[kchayfie]

18 months into my career, I moved from a company with an accredited training scheme to one without. At the time of moving I tried to write up my 18months to go into my T&E report for IChemE chartership so that it could be signed off by my collegues in case we lost touch. As I could only find half a paragraph of useful examples in the whole 18 months experience, I gave up. In the new job simply due to the greater variety of projects I was exposed to, I probably had enough examples to fill a T&E report within 18 months of starting there.

However, with the 4 years minimum experience requirement plus the change in format for application for IChemE chartership plus a whole great big chunk of procrastination time, I still haven't got round to making my application!

I wouldn't worry about routes to chartership until about the 3rd year of your career. Until then, concentrate on getting the most out of whatever projects you get to work on and make sure you keep notes on what you've been doing. By year 3, you can start to identify where the gaps are in your experience and plan on how to fill in those gaps. If your company doesn't have an accredited training scheme, it doesn't mean they won't let you take a secondment in another department to get the experience you need. Most employers see the advantage in offering the training but not necessarily in paying the institutions for the accredition.

 

[GregLocock]

I'm 45 and I still haven't applied for Chartership! It would make no difference to my career, and every year when I pay my subs I can make the decision as to whether to continue (and I can assure you it is a damn close call).

Cheers

Greg Locock

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[Radionise]

I'd say it strongly depend on the industry that you are working in.

For my case, since I'm joining the contracting or EPC industry, getting chartered is almost vital. Although it's too early to say that I'd still remain in my chosen industry say in the next 5 or 10 years, but since this is my first stepping stone into the bewildering world of working, I think it is a good thing to set some short term and long term goals which are in parallel with the trend of the business.

But at the same time, I've also came to know that getting chartered does not mean that one will get a raise in his/her salary. In fact, quite a number of the contracting or consultancy companies are known not to give any salary raise when their employees got chartered. If that's the case, what are the other motivations to get chartered? Besides reasons of recognition on technical competency and also protection of the 'engineer' profession title?

PhD - Permanent Head Damage

 

[stanier]

THe reason to become chartered is that it is a goal to be recognised by one's peers as to competency and professionalism. If everyone decided not to both it gives credence to the popular belief that engineers drive stean locomotives!

Belonging to a learned society is a bit like insurance. it pays for someone else'e problem until yu need it. Without masss support the institutions would fall over.

ASME/IMeche/ICE/IChemE etc are all suffering with convincing people that they are relevant in the modern world. This is particularly so when universities churn out engineers with soft degrees, where basic engineering has been eroded by business studies and management paths. Time will tell. Project managers will be out of work and there will be /or is, a shortage of engineers with the techncial and mathemamtic ability to do the work necessary to keep industry going.

Being chartered is more relevant today than ever. If your current company doesnt recognise the benefit it is because it is being managed by the very same outputs from universities I have described.

Be proud of being an engineer have a five year plan/set of goals and continue to be active in the profession.

Some tips:

Go for at least four interviews for a new job every year. Demand outrageous salaries and knock the offers back explianing your reasons. (if we all did this the salaries of engineers would rise)

Be an active member of IChemE

Join standards committees

Never compromise your professionalism for the sake of a quick buck or a cost saving for your employer

Remeber all managers demanding you compromise your ethics are bullies. Stand up and be counted for all bullies are basically cowards. You will find that they need you more than you need them. For they cant do the work.

Never commit yourself moneywise to more than you can expect to afford. Do without so you can maintain your ndependence. Never let your nboss know your monetary circumstances for sure he will use it against you.

Here endeth the lesson and I shall retreat from my soap box.

Geoffrey D Stone FIMechE C.Eng;FIEust CP Eng

http://www.waterhammer.bigblog.com.au

 

[GregLocock]

I'd be slightly more inclined to agree, if the reason that the IMechE did not accept my perfectly sensible engineering degree was that it did not have an "engineer in society" paper. When I took that paper at Birdcage Walk I found it to be a mishmash of soft subjects.

They later decided that I didn't need to take it after all.

I don't know about the other Institutions, but the IMechE seems to be dying for good reasons.

In no particular order:

Issuing honorary fellowships to non-engineers

Amalgamating with non-core institutions and accepting their members as full Members of the IMechE (eg acousticians)

Retaining Birdcage Walk

Confusing everybody with their policy on technician engineers, or whatever they call them.

Refusing to send me, an automotive engineer, the magazine for my specialisation.

and the list goes on.



Cheers

Greg Locock

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[ScottyUK]

Stanier,

Great post. I could have written so much of what you said myself, the words are so close to my thoughts. I try to follow your advice - particularly

Never compromise your professionalism for the sake of a quick buck or a cost saving for your employer

Remeber all managers demanding you compromise your ethics are bullies. Stand up and be counted for all bullies are basically cowards. You will find that they need you more than you need them. For they cant do the work.

And I seem to be following this one too

Go for at least four interviews for a new job every year. Demand outrageous salaries and knock the offers back explianing your reasons. (if we all did this the salaries of engineers would rise)

Greg,

Look at the mess the IEE has created - "The IET". You should be pleased you are with the IMechE! I am embarrassed to be associated with the ex-IEE, and have voted against everything to do with the creation of the new body. I am writing to request that they cease referring to me as "MIET" and revert to "MIEE". We shall see what happens!

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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[GregLocock]

OK, I'm out of touch with that. What is this IET? Whatever it is that's crazy - the IEE used to have their heads screwed on.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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[Radionise]

I do notice the tendency of engineering institutions awarding fellowships to mostly academicians nowadays. It seems that there is a tendency of fellowship being given to those in the research and development world rather than those in the industry. Just look at those testimonials or publications by any institutions and you will see what I mean. It's as if it is being made easier for them in the academic world. Well correct me if this perception of mind is not right though.

But let's face it. Academia or R&D and the industry are just plainly different no matter how you want to integrate them together.

I just wonder what sort of contribution would an engineer in the industry need to achieve in order to be given fellowship status?

PhD - Permanent Head Damage

 

[ScottyUK]

The IET is the "new" IEE - they've merged with the IIE, the electrical & electronic technicians institute and formed the new organisation. I would have no problem - probably even support - a merger between organisations of technical and professional parity, such as the IEE / IMechE / ICE. Handled properly that could eventually lead toward professional recognition for our profession, although probably not in my lifetime. The IEE's "Member" status used to indicate Chartership, with lower grades being Associate Member, Associate and Student, and the higher grade being Fellow. Now "Member" seems to mean "paid this year's subscription".

[rant]

I'm annoyed - suddenly all the effort to get my chartership and become a professional Member of a recognised and respected professional body has been dumped in the skip and I have been given a title I don't recognise from an organisation whose purpose I don't understand.

[/rant!]

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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

 

[GregLocock]

Scotty, Ah, exactly.

Radionise, you might want to reread Stanier's sig.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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[Ashereng]

Hey stanier, you need to att Eng-Tips to your list of favourite links.

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