Owners certificate and plastic storage. Am I missing something? 1

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I have a vague question where answers will be based upon personal experience and knowledge of water supplies in your particular geographical location.

I have the good habit of insisting on the "Owners Certificate" because someday the practice will save me from disaster.

I will need to clarify that all expanded plastics are in cartons.

The mercantile in question provided an owners certificate (see attachment) and while only a small part of the store was storage all kinds of alarm bells went off in my head.

The ceiling heights are between 20'-0" and 25'-0" AFF.

I am looking at an NFPA 13-2002 Edition ESFR system:

Table 12.2.3.3.1 ESFR Protection of Palletized and Solid-Pile Storage of Plastic and Rubber Commodities.

Table 12.3.3.3.1 ESFR Protection of Rack Storage without Solid Shelves of Plastics Commodities Stored Up to and Including 25 ft (7.6 m) in Height

Once "Exposed unexpanded" and "Cartoned expanded" the option of using the K25.2 sprinkler is gone and with the lowest possible end head pressure of 35 psi I have to think a fire pump will be required far more often than not.

I have the results of three flow tests around the area and they are:

72 static
46 residual
1,088 gpm

60 static
52 residual
1,034 gpm

68 static
55 residual
1,061 gpm

I know, something doesn't seem right so I will go conduct my own flow test but for now consider the best of the three which is 60, 52 @ 1,034.

The best you can hope for is a total demand of 1,450 gpm. For pressure 35 psi plus another 10 psi for elevation, 5 psi for backflow and a minimum 10 psi for friction loss through pipe and we are looking at a residual pressure of requirement of 60 psi. I don't think I am off on the friction loss by much seeing how we would lose almost 2 psi in only 100' of C900 underground.

I suppose if we make the feed and lines stupidly large we might be able to whittle the 60 psi residual back to 55 psi but I don't think the structural engineer on the project will be happy to see my 8" bulk mains on 24" bar joists.

I've been told a very large (90% or better) portion of these stores have sprinkler systems without fire pumps and, given the contents of the owners certificate, I just don't see how that can be.

Perhaps we would have a better chance without a pump using Factory Mutual standards (the Tyco K25.2 extended coverage head) but this is not a Factory Mutual job.

And now on to the questions.

It rattles me to be told 90% of these projects going in around the country are without fire pumps. I just can't accept that, might I not get the project because I am the only one doing it right? In regards to the owners certificate am I missing something? Perhaps I am the only one to insist on an owners certificate and everyone else is going mercantile OH-2?

In your experience, geographical area and owners certificate, how often would you expect a fire pump to be needed on this project? Just a general answer; 10% of the time, 50% of the time, 90% of the time?

PS

To all the PE's and FPE's if I do get the project I will pay to consult with one in connection with the owners certificate and design criteria I come up with. It's cheap design insurance.

 

[MGXFP]

I have done similar and, from memory, a fire pump is required about 30% of the time. The plastic storage makes the hairs on my neck stand up so pouring through the plans and doing your homework is essential. Kudos to you. Better to lose the job than do it wrong.

Some dim bulb will probably bid it OH2 and get it.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Newton,

Being in the flatland of Georgia, and the fact that the Georgia State Fire Marshal requires a minimum 10 psi safety factor on all systems, my guess is 90% of like systems would require a fire pump. For a 100 mile radius I can guess static pressure will be 55 to 65 psi and be right 95% of the time.

Over in Savannah it's even worse with 55 to 58 static, 40 to 45 residual flowing 900 gpm and the way the town is gridded together this is what you get wherever you are.

Then there are areas with hills, such as Atlanta or around the Columbus, Georgia area where 100 to 120 psi static is everywhere and the issue of a fire pump never comes up.

 

[stookeyfpe]

I'm not one bit surprised by this. I've seen numerous plans for Group M occupancies specifying an OH2 design on the retail space and the "back of the house." When I review the fixture plan, 90% of the drawings illustrate single or double row racks. When questioned about commodities, I've heard numerous times that it's Class III or IV, but we don't have any plastics.

Good job SD2 but unfortunately what you have found is unfortunately very common. Did you find any plastic pallets in your survey?

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I'm not one bit surprised by this. I've seen numerous plans for Group M occupancies

The first copy of NPFA #13 I used was 1972 and the word "mercantile" was there and OH2 was the way we did everything which wasn't so bad considering 90% of what we did was pipe schedule.

"Mercantile", brings up images of small hardware stores in the old west of the 1880's but back then they didn't have the plastics. When was the term "Mercantile" first used in the standard? 1910? 1920? In my opinion the term "Mercantile" need to be retired.

Just 35 to 40 years ago, talking in the mid 1970's, we had plastics the plastics we had to contend with were nothing compared with what we have today.

The more I look the more I discovered just about everything is plastic.

The owners certificate was very good going into a lot of detail including photos. With this owners certificate there can be no denial there are Group A plastics and they are definitely stored higher than 5'.

It is upsetting to me that more of my fellow technicians are not demanding an owners certificate on every job they do.

4.3 Owners' Certificate.
The owner(s) of a building or structure where the fire sprinkler system is going to be installed or their authorized agent shall provide the sprinkler systems installer with the following information prior to the layout and detailing of the fire sprinkler system:

That is pretty straight forward, isn't it? Now maybe the owner doesn't know about that requirement but every technician should so why aren't they asking the questions?

Seems to me to do a job without an owners certificate is to take on even more liability than we already have to deal with. A fire, a $30 million loss and being deposed by a lawyer who knows you should have asked for a certificate but didn't can't be leaving one with warm, fuzzy feelings.

I got to think at least 50% of such buildings, given ceiling heights of 20 to 25 feet, would have to have a fire pump to provide proper protection. In fact I am willing to wager the real number would be closer to 75% but then I live in flatland.

Stookey, I know you have a ton more experience with this sort of thing than anyone else so what would be your estimate to the percentage of such buildings that could be properly protected without a fire pump?

 

[stookeyfpe]

SD2,

You asked:


I can’t give you a good answer to your pump question because it’s dependant on the water supply, the building and storage heights, and the selected sprinklers. With that said, I’ve seen about 40-50% of the big boxes in the last 10 years being specified with a fire pump. Those without a pump commonly utilize a Special Design under NFPA 13. Those are acceptable provided they are maintained in accordance with the approved design.

One concern I would have in looking at your photos is the retail display and storage of hazardous materials. Does the company store and display flammable & combustible liquids or swimming pool chemicals formulated with oxidizers? It’s an important question to ask, especially if they have seasonal sales (i.e., charcoal lighter fluid in the Spring, pool chemicals in the Summer, methanol windshield washer fluid in the Winter).

Your survey confirms my decision to base any design in a Group M occupancy on the assumption the stored goods are a cartoned unexpanded Group A plastic. In speculation Group S occupancies, that’s my basis for design. There is just too many commodities formulated from Group A plastics. In my book High-Piled Combustible Storage Application Guide, I include an analysis of the top 10 plastic resins produced in the US based on data from the Society of Plastic Industries. Six out of the 10 plastic resins are Group A plastics. In other words, if a warehouse is used for storing plastics, there is a 60% probability that you will have Group A plastics, based on the amount of the various forms of resins manufactured in the US.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

With that said, I’ve seen about 40-50% of the big boxes in the last 10 years being specified with a fire pump. Those without a pump commonly utilize a Special Design under NFPA 13. Those are acceptable provided they are maintained in accordance with the approved design.

Every state I do business in is operating under the 2002 edition of 13 and I didn't know about "special designs" so I broke out my 2010 handbook.

20.3* Sprinkler Design Criteria for Storage and Display of Class I Through Class IV Commodities, Cartoned Nonexpanded Group A Plastics and Nonexpanded Exposed Group A Plastics in Retail Stores

I feel like I hit the jackpot if I use the TYCO Model EC-25 Extended Coverage Upright Sprinklers Link.

Now I can see how it is possible to layout many of a system without having to resort to a fire pump as long as the AHJ accepts criteria from the 2010 edition. I don't know why they wouldn't but there is always that slim chance they won't and then what to do if you already bid the job?

 

[LCREP]

Now I can see how it is possible to layout many of a system without having to resort to a fire pump as long as the AHJ accepts criteria from the 2010 edition. I don't know why they wouldn't but there is always that slim chance they won't and then what to do if you already bid the job?

See the following, they should have no problem with it.

NFPA 13 2002 ed

1.6 New Technology.
1.6.1 Nothing in this standard shall be intended to restrict new technologies or alternate arrangements, provided the level of safety prescribed by this standard is not lowered.

1.6.2 Materials or devices not specifically designated by this standard shall be utilized in complete accord with all conditions,requirements, and limitations of their listings.

****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

See the following, they should have no problem with it.

Ah, the "equivalency clause". That's what Ken Isman with NFSA called it during a class where this very subject came up.

While they shouldn't have a problem with it I've always been reluctant to use it for fear of running into the 1 in 1,000 that won't accept it. Then what? I'm left looking like an idiot is what's what.

In this case it appears I can escape the need for a fire pump and, seeing as how plans on this one will go to a state state fire marshal and not a local guy, I think the chances are high it sail through.