P.E. Liability in Exempt Industry 2

[MechEng2005]

Greetings,

I know that many aspects of P.E. licensing have been covered in-depth. If the answer is out there, please point me to it! Or if this topic is more appropriate in a different forum, please suggest which one.

I currently am an EIT and working in an exempt industry where a PE license is not required. However, for my own ego/self-improvement, I have debated if I should at least attempt to get my PE eventually. I still have a little more to fulfill experience requirements, a lot more studying to do, and would have to try to dig up references (difficult when all contacts are in exempt industry and therefore not likely to be PEs). However, what I would like to know for the future is:

1) If I get my PE license, pay for the exam myself, and pay for registration, do I have any greater liability at work? Will I be held to a higher standard for the engineering I do? If so, why would I bother to get my PE? It seems like it adds personal risk with no benefit. (Assume for this that my employer doesn't even know that I have my PE)

2) I assume that having PE on a business card or anything submitted to customers, vendors, etc would increase my personal liability, even if I do not stamp anything. Correct?

3) Following the lines of question #1, if I were to get my PE but not advertise that I have it (Not on business cards, verbally, etc)... What if a salesperson at my company told the customer I have a PE? Would that increase my personal liability even though I personally did not tell/offer professional engineering?

I will start with those questions and we'll see where it takes us!

Thanks, --MechEng2005

 

[Ron]

ME2005...first of all, I commend you on pursuing licensing, without regard to being in an exempt industry. You might find that you'll want to change industries at some point and the P.E. will definitely be a feather in your cap.

Since you have no P.E.'s at your employment, you might have a bit of difficulty meeting the requirements for taking the P.E. exam, since most states require direct internship under a licensed engineer. Check with your state board on that one.

As a P.E., you will almost always be held to a higher standard of practice, after all, non-licensed engineers have little in the way of defined practice criteria, even though most are as ethical and technically competent as any P.E. The license doesn't make you a good engineer, just one that can get into easier if you're not.

Having P.E. on your business card does not increase your liability. It increases your exposure, but that's not a bad thing as long as you practice competently.

Others having knowledge of your P.E. also doesn't necessarily increase your liability, other than the typical of having a greater duty for performance.

I would suggest that if your company is going to recognize you as a licensed engineer (and they will likely want to use that), that they become licensed with the state as required, and that they indemnify and protect you with appropriate professional liability insurance.

Good luck.

 

[zdas04]

I was working under an industrial exemption when I got my P.E. and the first week after I got my stamp, the local manager asked me to start working on the SPCC Plan (an EPA requirement that must be stamped). I called a company lawyer and I thought he was going to require defibrillation. He sputtered that I could not do the plan and that I would be an idiot to take on that liability without personal E&O insurance and a LOT more money.

Bottom line of that conversation was that the attorney's opinion was that while working for the company I did not assume any additional liability while performing exempt tasks. That as a P.E. I was assuming an obligation to report improper practices (much like the lawyer assumed as an Officer of the Court), but that I better not ever use my stamp at work. He had no problem with my having "P.E." on business cards and letterheads, but that I couldn't stamp anything.

This was in a job that worked under an industrial exemption. It is very different from the advice I would have gotten had I been is a company that was holding itself out to the public as engineers. In that situation, insurance and liability and compensation issues are all items for negotiation.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Life is nature's way of preserving meat" The Master on Dr. Who

 

[hokie66]

Agree with Ron's and David's advice. When working for an exempt employer and performing exempt tasks, just being a PE does not make you more liable for your work. Don't assume that just because you are in an exempt industry that there won't be any PE's around to give you the required supervision/mentoring. I once worked for a few years in an exempt industry, and there were lots of PE's, including my boss. Ask around.

 

[stevenal]

I fail to see the distinction. A PE stamps some plans that by statute require a PE stamp, for use by his employer. The same PE prepares other unstamped plans for the same employer. Any possible action the employer has against the employee are the same, the use of the stamp does not change this relationship.

Certainly the PE takes on a higher ethical duty to the general public when he accepts his license. Again, the use of the stamp does not change his duty to the public.

 

[MechEng2005]

Thanks for the responses!

So, if I am understanding correctly...

If I get my PE and continue to work in an exempt industry, I do not need to take any action (i.e. getting insurance personally, ensuring I am named on company insurance, etc). This applies even if I have P.E. on business cards, email signatures, etc.

However, if I get my PE and were to stamp/sign a drawing, I incur the liability and MUST have insurance, either personally or by being named on my employer's policy. (Obviously if I were stamping something, it would be for work and I would certainly expect to have them pay for the insurance and an increase in compensation for my increased value and liability).

If I get my PE, regardless of if it is a secret from my employer, customers, wife, etc, I will be held accountable for a duty to ensure all designs are safe by the state board. While I may not be able to be sued, I am subject to any "punishment" the state board determines appropriate if a problem arises with something I have designed.

Am I understanding correctly? Also, for those who have worked in exempt industries with a PE, do you expect additional wages/compensation for the "advertising" value even if you never stamp anything? Is it common for employers in exempt industry to pay for the PE exam and/or registration?

-- MechEng2005

 

[stevenal]

Probably a good idea for any company to have liability insurance, whether it employs PEs or not. And it would be unwise for an employer's insurance to name individual employees, since a mistake in the listing could be disastrous.

Yes we feel the PE adds value and that we should be compensated accordingly. Gonna be a more difficult argument to make if the rare stamping occasion is killed by the company lawyer.

Been registered since '97, and used my stamp twice. Once for a reference for an engineer to sit for the exam, and again just a few weeks ago to enhance a document that called for "engineering judgment."

 

[zdas04]

MechEng2005,
You almost described my situation when I still worked in an exempt industry, but not quite. The fact you have a P.E. does not mean

I will be held accountable for a duty to ensure all designs are safe by the state board.

If you don't have a business reason to review someone else's design then you are not accountable. You are accountable for the designs you work on, and have some specific responsibilities to the public but they are very similar to what any degreed engineer would be expected to assume.

David

 

[stevenal]

David,

While any engineer is accountable and has a duty to the public, the board has no authority over the non-PE working in an exempt industry. The PE accepts this authority regardless of where he works.

 

[zdas04]

While the Board of Licencure has no jurisdiction, if a problem gets to court the courts tend to find that an engineer has an obligation to prevent harm that is similar to that expected of a P.E. which only makes sense. For problems that don't quite get to court, the Board can slap a P.E. and there isn't a similar avenue to censure for the exempt engineer.

David

 

[Ron]

stevenal...David is correct. The board, if it is deemed that the "person" acted in an engineering capacity, then has some authority over that person...most notably "practicing engineering without a license".

 

[stevenal]

Which is why I specifically said "non-PE working in an exempt industry." Not a case of unlicensed practice.

 

[MechEng2005]

So the state licensing board has authority over everybody who acts in "an engineering capacity" by the board's defination, regardless of if they have a license or not? Or does the board only have authority over registered PEs?

Would a charge of "practicing engineering without a license" come from the state board or from the court system? I'm guessing issues arising from unethical/unsafe practices in engineering generally go through the state board and then are followed up by the state's attorney, regardless of if the defendant is a registered PE or not, so all trials would look the same at that point. The only difference would be if the plaintiff has a formal document from when you got the PE or if they argue that the duty of care is the responsibilty of all engineers, licensed or not.

-- MechEng2005

 

[stevenal]

The board does not make its own definition, it is defined in the statutes.

 

[zdas04]

If you are in an exempt job, doing work that is legitimately exempt then the Board does not have jurisdiction. Civil cases can arise from this kind of work and then the courts decide fault. In rare situations where it can be shown that the Engineering met the standards for "gross negligence" then the local District Attorney could bring criminal charges.

If you are in an exempt job and an argument can be made that the work you are doing is in fact "holding yourself out to the public as an Engineer" then the boards regularly invoke sanctions along the lines of "practicing engineering without a license".

If you have a P.E. and you are in fact holding yourself out as an Engineer then if you do something "wrong" then the Board has a list of sanctions they can impose and the Civil and Criminal systems can get interested as well.

David

 

[JLSeagull]

I lack professional insurance such as errors and omissions. Also, I rarely use my stamp.

It is possible that someone in your chain of command is a licensed PE. This may satisfy your board regulations for applying.