P.E. licensure in New Jersey

[jonkirk31]

Have any of you been granted P.E. licensure in New Jersey by way of taking the 16-hour Structural (S.E.) exam?

I took and passed the 16-hour S.E. exam in Pennsylvania as my first and only exam to receive P.E. licensure in PA, and then became licensed as a P.E. in MD, VA, WV, NY, DE, and DC via comity with no problems with any of the state boards, even though none of these states have any special recognition for S.E. licensure - all only give a regular P.E. but none had any issues with the 16-hour exam.

I finally got around to applying for my P.E. in New Jersey this year and received a letter in response that basically recognizes what exam I took and then states that "there was no indication that you passed the Principles and Practices portion of the NCEES examination, which was required by the NJ Board at the time of your initial licensure. Please be advised that the Board does not recognize the Structural I and Structural II examinations as substitutes for the Principles and Practices (Part P) portion of the NCEES examination. At this time, and until you can demonstrate that you have taken and passed the Principals & Practice examination, your application cannot be considered for approval."

Prior to responding to the NJ Board, I was hoping to see if there is anyone out there who has come across this with New Jersey before and if anyone has advice on how to proceed?

Anyone familiar with the 16-hour S.E. exam would logically conclude that this exam successfully demonstrates competency to practice engineering, but due to its special designation (not technically called a P.E. exam), it looks like NJ Board is either too lazy to formally review and approve it, or else is just not familiar with the exam to understand what it is. I tend to want to give them the benefit of the doubt and think the latter case may be true since the letter I received came from their Executive Director and he incorrectly referred to the exams as the Structural I and Structural II, which are obsolete not what I had indicated that I took.

Obviously my goal here is to receive P.E. licensure in New Jersey without having to go and take a regular P.E. exam, so anyone with some advice or feedback on how that may or may not be possible would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Jon

 

[dmoench01]

Hey Jon,

I see no one has responded yet. I'm registered in 23 states and though I'm not registered in NJ I've seen issues like this in other states. I'm willing to bet this is just a misunderstanding and you do meet the requirements for licensure in NJ. Ask them to clarify what they need for testing and I'm sure they will eventually understand that you meet all the criteria.

Dwayne

 

[Archie264]

Yeah, uh, da 16 hour exam ain't good enough...gotta take da 8 hour one.

Gotta love it.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I also took the SE exam in lieu of the PE exam for licensure in the state of Maine. I'm in the process of applying for a NH and MA stamp right now and expect that to go through.

The only requirement Maine had was that I pass a NCEES engineering licensure exam with 8 hours or more of test time. Thus, the 16 hour exam (as long as I passed both parts) was considered acceptable. However, on my record they simply listed that I passed PE Structural (but then didn't credit me in the news letter as passing the PE exam and getting my Maine PE ) so I know there is definitely a disconnect as to what they seem to think I took for an exam.

I hope you get this resolved. My whole intent with the SE exam was, as I plan to do 99% structural engineering in my career, I don't need a PE exam nor does it represent my competence. Thus, I figured I could avoid taking both the PE and SE exam and go straight to the SE. I really hope I don't have to backtrack and take the PE now just for a few odd states.

In my mind, assuming you're doing mostly structural engineering, the SE is a much tougher and 2 times longer exam. It should count in lieu for the PE unless your typical field is not structural engineering.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[Archie264]

>>>It should count in lieu for the PE unless your typical field is not structural engineering.<<<

Of course it does; that's it's whole purpose for existing. The 8-hour structural exam is no longer offered. It's a shame news apparently doesn't travel from Clemson, SC to Trenton, NJ.

 

[jonkirk31]

That head bashing against the brick wall emoticon sums it up perfectly. I didn't even bother explaining the 8 month process I went through with New Jersey just to get them to review my application. But suffice it to say, they're the flag bearer of governmental incompetence.

I haven't yet responded directly to the NJ Board, as I was hoping to find someone with previous experience with New Jersey and acceptance of the SE exam to be as informed as possible in my response. NCEES was of no help. In fact, NCEES strengthened NJ's case against me by explicitly stating that the 16-hour SE exam is definitely NOT a unique form of the PE exam. It is separate and unique and not to be mistaken as a PE exam. I have an email out to NCSEA to see if they can provide any background information but I doubt they will be much help either. I just want to be armed with as many facts as possible before responding to make as solid of a case as possible to have them grant me licensure.

The trouble I've found some of these small government offices is that people aren't willing to use common sense. They won't even try to use their brain to logically conclude that the 16-hour exam meets the intent of their law, they will only look at the language in their law that states "must pass Principles and Practice exam" and see that this exam is not titled that, and then case closed, no room for debate.

I really hope cooler heads will prevail but if I had to bet my life on it, I'd guess that this is a losing battle.

Jon

 

[bridgebuster]

Keep in mind, NJ exists to make Pennsylvania look intelligent. Try calling the NJ chapter of NSPE they should be able to provide some guidance. For what it's worth, I got my NJ license by reciprocity - long before NCEES & 16-hour structural exams - but it took time. They rejected my application the first time for some stupid reason I can't remember.

 

[Archie264]

This might be like the case of someone who was constantly billed for $0.00 and kept getting increasingly-threatening letters for not paying. After dealing with the customer service department to no avail he finally solved the problem by sending in a check for $0.00. What I'm getting at is that if you really need that license, can't make headway otherwise and your knowledge of civil engineering topics is broad enough (mine isn't) perhaps you could take the 8-hour exam in civil and make an end run around the bureaucrats.

By the time you do all that, though, the issue may have resolved itself. After all, surely the NJ structural engineering community wants their new hires to be licensable at some point.

 

[jonkirk31]

Good analogy Archie, and my boss said something to the same effect. My company absolutely needs me to get licensed in NJ, so somehow or another I need to get it figured out. It's already causing our business problems by how long it has taken.

By retaking the P.E. I would be looking at taking the April exam and June to be licensed. And the trouble is that I'm not sure I would even pass it. I was an Architectural Engineering major in college with a focus on building structures. My knowledge of all of the other aspects of Civil Engineering is literally zero, so 40% of the Civil Structural exam would be new material for me that I would then never use again in my life. My other option would be to take the relatively new Architectural Engineering exam, but I don't remember much of anything about the mechanical or electrical stuff I learned in school and the scope of that exam is of course beyond the introductory classes I had on those topics anyway. That's why I thought my best chance to pass any exam was the 16-hour structural exam since that is my specialty, and studying for it wouldn't be solely for the purpose of passing a test. So perhaps the $0.00 check isn't quite the perfect analogy, since taking a new test would take significant study time when I have many better things to do than appeasing idiots the fine folks in government offices who are rejecting my application based on the title of a test not matching what an old law states without looking at the intent of the law in light of recent developments in the engineering community.

Again, Insanely frustrating paradox.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Can you apply for a temporary license until you get your PE license/exam sorted out?

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[jonkirk31]

No, New Jersey doesn't do temporary licenses. It's the real deal or nothing at all with them.

 

[mike20793]

The fact that they still require embossed seals on drawings should be a flag that they are behind everyone else. I had a couple state government jobs that required calculations and we basically sent the same calculations 4 times before they were 'accepted' with no changes whatsoever. I guess it's all part of the bureaucratic mess.

 

[PEinc]

Could the NJ "problem" be that the SE exam is more specialized and does not demonstrate competency in many of the other civil topics that are covered in the PE exam?

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[Archie264]

PEinc, so was the old 8-hour structural exam: it was nothing but structural as well.

 

[jonkirk31]

All forms of the 8-hour P.E. exams are specialized to a specific field to a very large degree, and yet all result the exact same P.E. license being granted so I can't think it's that NJ has it out for structural engineers that don't know anything about storm water systems.

I seriously doubt they are even thinking about it critically like that or have any real logical basis for their rejection, which is wherein the real problem lies and why I think I have little to no chance of winning this battle. If they were thinking about it to the level of rationalizing a reason for not accepting the 16-hour SE, they would have no reason to reject it.

 

[GeoPaveTraffic]

While I certainly sympathize with you and agree that what you are being told doesn't make a lot of sense; keep in mind that IF (and I don't know one way or the other) the NJ law says you have to pass the P&P examine the person reviewing the application may have no choice. Remember, they have to follow the law. If the law is written poorly, don't blame the person charged with enforcing the law, blame the people who wrote the law.

That said, good luck. I'm afraid you are going to need it.

Mike Lambert

 

[jonkirk31]

That is a good point, Mike, thanks for the reminder. It will help me keep composure in my follow up to the Board.

On the other hand though, the same language about either the "P.E. exam" or "Principles and Practice exam" is written virtually the same in all 7 of the other jurisdictions that I am licensed in, without special mention of the S.E. exam. That makes sense since the 16-hour S.E. wasn't around the last time most of these rules were reviewed and enacted, but the other states either didn't review my application very closely and approved it just because I was licensed elsewhere, or else used common sense to understand the intent of the law and not the nitpick the title of the exam. And since the state licensing boards are the ones who basically write the laws to put in front of legislature to pass, it seems silly that the board can't interpret the real intent of their own rules that are intended to ensure competency of people practicing engineering.

 

[Archie264]

GeoPaveTraffic,

Yes, that's no-doubt the case; the clerk at the licensing board doesn't make the rules and is not entitled to ignore them. The state legislature makes the rules...either by adopting the licensing board's recommendations or deferring to them. The licensing board exists to determine the requirements for licensure and grant licenses to applicants who meet said requirements. That's not tangential to their job; that is their job. And they have clearly not done their job because they've created a Catch-22 situation wherein newly-eligible structural engineers cannot be licensed. They are requiring them to take a test that is no longer offered. It's inexcusable.

 

[JStephen]

To get a license to design tanks, I had to take a test on sizing pumps, etc. It doesn't always make sense.
I can just imagine going down for a driver's license and having to take a test to see if you can whistle. That's about what it amounts to.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

Not saying you should, but if you do exhaust all options I would be willing to join you in making as big a stink about this as possible. Being in New England it's not unreasonable I may need a NJ license in the near or far future and I don't want to run into the same problem you're having. This should be changed and I'd love to help make it happen.

Maine Professional and Structural Engineer
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com