PE Question - take the FE exam or petition??? 3

[soonershok]

I have been working as a drafter/designer for 14 years now. I started back to school part time about 4 years ago to get my mech. engineering degree. I now have 2 semesters left before graduation. My question is - do I take the FE-EIT exam this fall and then wait the mandatory time before taking the PE? OR do I petition to use my experience and just go for the PE exam?

I have heard the PE exam is very difficult. Plus I am not sure if I really need to have my PE. Can you all give me advice on pro's and con's of having a PE? Thanks in advance.

Larry

 

[swertel]

First of all, check out

http://www.nspe.org.

The National Society of Professional Engineers has a great description as to what qualifies as experience and what doesn't. Fourteen years is a long time, but if 12 of them are as a drafter, you probably don't have enough qualifying experience to petition for the PE.

Second, check with your local state regulating agency to determine what the requirements are. Most states have matching requirements: at least a BS in engineering with 4 years relevant experience. Higher levels of education can replace a fraction of years experience. Also, the experience is usually counted after the degree, but it completely depends on the type of work, your responsibilities of your work prior to getting the degree, and state regs.

The PE is very difficult. If your local institution has a PE prep course, take it. You can also order PE study material for home use. (Sadly, I don't have info for you to find it. I just know I keep getting mailings since I took the FE.)

Pros & Cons (you get to choose how you feel about them):
1) Having "PE" show up after your name on business cards.
2) Respect from your peers.
3) Pride in accomplishment.
4) That cool stamp that you can put on engineering documents.
5) The little piece of paper that states that you follow high professional standards and ethics.
6) Responsibility.
7) More $$$$.
8) More career opportunities.
9) Liability
10) and The insurance costs that go with it.
11) Be summonsed to court (to give professional opinion/fact in technical matters such as, crane topples and kills someone... Who's at fault?)

Good luck.

I expect to be sitting for the PE withing 3 years. Could be 2 if I get more qualifying experience. I'm also going back for my Master's to get more experience and a PE refresher.

--Scott

 

[TWong]

Lazy Engineer Method -
Get the FE and the associated pay raises and forget about getting your PE. Today, a PE has too much associated risk for title. You can compensate for the PE's salary by jumping from company to company.

Tough it out Engineer Method -
Petition and go for the PE. The title is still pretty cool despite the responsibilities. You can drown your sorrows in the dollars you make.

You only need your PE if you are in a field that demands it, if you have topped out in your industry in both salary and position, or if your company wants you to go after it. Past that, I have worked for 14 years without the FE and haven't seen sight of the glass ceiling yet.

If you are stuctural, aerospace or aviation I might consider it. Manufacturing, safety, environmental or controls, you should be fine without it. There are still a lot of engineers out there without a BS degree. I think it all boils down to, "Where do you want to go with this license?"

 

[blmcghee]

Try this site:

http://www.theinformant.com/

Maybe it will answer a few questions.

 

[soonershok]

I appreciate the responses. My field currently doesn't require it....well let's say, the company I am currently working for doesn't require it. In fact, of the 30+ engineers that do work here, only 2 have their P.E. and they don't use it for anything. They don't check the work, or do anything more or less than the other engineers.

I would like to use my design experience and my engineering degree to move more into a design engineers role. Do you see the P.E. helping me in this particular area? Does it place the average engineer at the front of the line in the interviewing process?? I am not afraid of hard work by any means....but I also don't want to waste my time either.

 

[Rich2001]

Take the FE it will help you in studying for the PE, In addition it will help pinpoint area that you may need to study more. I found the PE exam to be easier than the FE exam, (more focused).

I am a PE and recommend that any engineer get it. It has opened doors that were closed, getting me consulting contracts, and helpful in resolving problems with inspectors.

I also recommend that you obtain certification in your areas of expertise. (Important in the mechanical, manufacturing and instrumentation fields.) A few of the certifications are; Certified Manufacturing Engineer, Certified welding Engineer, Corrosion specialist, Motion Control Specialist, Certified Quality Engineer, Certified Reliability Engineer, and Certified Plant Engineer.

Where I live if you want to modify your house and the labor and material cost are greater than $500 the plans must be sealed by and engineer or an architect. Having a PE ccan save you $200 to $300.

We have 8 engineers on staff where I work, 6 of us are PE's and use our seals daily.

In must state there is a continuing education requirement for engineers. So be prepared to take a course every year to maintain your PE.

Hope my rambling on helps, Rich

 

[DonLeffingwellPE]

I would suggest you look at the FAQ at the top of this forum in particular.

Don Leffingwell

 

[electricpete]

I saw a lot of responses touting the additional responsibilities, headaches, and liability associated with having a PE.

I'm in the category of someone that has a PE but doesn't need it (as I think most folks in this discussion would be). It hasn't caused me any headaches whatsoever. I don't stamp anything.... I don't see how my liability is any different than any other engineer.

 

[swertel]

electricpete,

You make the exact point. You can have a PE, just to have as a sense of accomplishment. If you don't put your stamp on anything, you have no additional liability. Once you stamp your first drawing, though, it's a whole new ballgame.

 

[TWong]

electricpete,

Don't mean to rain on your parade, I would love to have a PE, but I would also love to have an exotic sport car.

Would you buy a car and leave it parked in the garage? Why get it if you don't use it?

And as far as downfalls are concerned with having a PE, some companys can't afford to pay a PE's salary but have very exciting opportunities, especially the start ups. The last company I worked for was just such a company and we pitched the PE's resumes without much thought as we knew they would be out of our reach. If you don't care for that type of environment then I guess you have very little negatives to having a PE.

 

[brad]

TWong,

I'll disagree on your point as a general statement. A PE's salary may be more expensive in some industry sectors, but in mine (automotive) the PE label doesn't close the doors which you have stated. I was making the same amount that PE's make BEFORE I got my PE. By getting the PE, I didn't elevate my instrinsic worth within my sector.

I am in the same boat as electricpete--I've got the stamp, but all I've used it for is a pretty cool stamp for the books in my personal library.

Why do I continue to have it?

1) In the event that I am up for a job in the future which requires licensure, I've already a leg up on most of the competition.

2) I am the only PE licensed in my state for my current employer. Even though we haven't needed anybody to sign off on anything so far, the moment they need that signoff, I'm pretty darn useful.

3) Philosophical reasons--I think that lack of boards, bar exams, etc. is a significant contributor to the fact that our profession is significantly less-respected and less-well-paid than the other two major professions (law and medicine). I personally would like to see a stratification of the profession, much like legal secretaries vs. lawyers and Physician's Assistants vs. Doctors. The only way I see that happening is through a qualification process, and the closest that we have now is the PE. (I'll get off my soap box now).

So to use your exotic sports car analogy---sure I leave it in the garage, but it's already paid for, and in case I ever HAVE to drive 150, I'll beat everybody who's driving around in their Cavaliers.

Brad

 

[RDK]

I’m Canadian where the P.Eng as we call the P.E. is not as optional as in the US. We do not have the industrial exemption. (It is illegal to call yourself an engineer unless you are registered or you are a stationary or railway engineer and identify yourself as such). The MSCE and similar computer engineering terms are a matter of some dispute.

I cannot really comment on all of the issues raised above but do not see being a PE as a job marketing liability, All other things being equal, I would pick a candidate who showed some dedication and commitment to the profession over someone who only finished a degree and has not done anything lately. If the job market is tough can you not take a lower salary to compete with the non-PE’s? If the job market is good then there will be a lot of other opportunities.

The comparison to a sports car left in the garage has a flaw in the logic. The sports car can be sold, lent to others, given away etc. The PE is yours and yours alone. Unless your association suspends your registration for cause all you have to do is pay the fees. (In Canada they are about $200 to $250 CDN (about $US 150) per year per province). Are US fees significantly different? You may also have some continuing education but most systems that I have seen the requirement is easily surpassed just staying current.

Here in Canada we have a voluntary certification for technologists called the CET or certified engineering technologist. I will always hire the CET over an equal candidate without the commitment and oversight provided by his [her] association. Qualified technologists are almost always registered. I also support the registration by paying the fees for my people. (Both P.Eng and CET)
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Haf]

Soonershok,

I see a lot of good advice and info above. There are many pros and cons to weigh when you decide if you want to become a PE. The bottom line, though: take the FE/EIT! I would say the test is fairly easy (at my school we had over a 95% overall pass rate; ME pass rate was more like 98-99%), especially if you take it shortly after you finish your BS. I saw one post above that contended that the PE test is easier than the FE/EIT; I would hazard to say that that poster is in the minority. Generally, most people consider the PE to be much more difficult and involved than the FE/EIT. The point: take and pass the FE/EIT now; worry about the PE later (after you weigh the many advantages/disadvantages posted above). If I remember correctly, you must take the FE/EIT within a few months of receiving your BS. Better to keep your options open!

Haf

 

[brad]

RDK--
$250 CDN? Wow! The exchange rate has to get really bad for you guys to come down to our level. And to think I complained when I renewed mine for 2 years at $60 (American). There are no requirements, other than keeping your license current (at least not in my state--Michigan).

Haf--the requirement of the FE/EIT is that one can start taking it 6 months prior to receiving a diploma. I don't why anybody would consider taking it sooner than that, but they are not allowed to by rule. There is no 'cutoff date' for when one must take the FE/EIT. I took it a few years out of BS, and and I've known people 20 years out of school who have taken it.

Brad

 

[RDK]

I have made the argument that the fees for P.Eng;’s should be dramatically increased. In Manitoba Canada we have about 3,300 P,.Eng and P.Geo’s This translates into around $800,000 (all $ CDN) in annual revenue. The association employs 5 support staff and 3 P.Eng’s. Add in office rental, telephone, the newsletter etc and you can soon account for the vast majority of the annual budget before any enforcement of the act occurs.

By contrast in Manitoba both doctors and lawyers pay over $1,000 in annual fees. Their average incomes are significantly more than engineer’s. (For doctors it’s over double). Their higher fees result in very aggressive enforcement of their acts.

If we doubled or tripled (or more) the fees for engineers and used the additional revenue for enforcement of the act then the marginal engineers would be eliminated and the public would be better protected. The increase in incomes would more than offset the higher fees. The result would be engineering would attract a higher calibre of student and the profession would once again regain its standing as equal to doctors and lawyers.

In Canada there is no exam requirement. For registration all that is required is graduation from an accredited university and 4 (just increased from 2) years qualifying experience.

Now as a Canadian with over 12 years post registration experience I can under the rules of NAFTA obtain registration is some states without any exams. (Texas specifically allows NAFTA registrations) Once registered in one state it is my understanding that I can transfer registration to any other state as easily as I can in Canada (fill in the forms and pay the fees)
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[brad]

Rick,
Unless something has changed dramatically in the last year, your contention that US states typically transfer licenses is incorrect.

Different states have different rules. Many states have reciprocity--licensure in one state transfers to another state, and only a fee is needed (what you have stated). However, most states only have reciprocity with those states which have equivalent requirements to theirs.

For most states, the requirement for PE is:
Passing of the FE/EIT exam, 5+ years post-baccalaureate experience, and passing of the PE exam. Many states allow those without degrees but with 9+ years professional experience to take the exams, but I understand that there are a lot of hurdles for people doing this. Additionally, before one can actually sit for the PE exam, one must submit no less than 5 references (at least three which are PE's) who will vouch both for character and for relevant work experience.

There are some states which do not allow reciprocity with any others--you may get credit for passing the FE/EIT and/or PE exams, but you still have to go through the rest of the application process for the PE. Some states do not recognize Baccalaureates from outside of US/Canada, even if the applicant has a US graduate degree in engineering. This has been problematic for many foreign nationals who have desired licensure (my recollection is that Alabama or Tennessee is especially strict on this).

By the way, I am in full agreement your other statements. As I've stated previously in this thread, I would desire a stratification of the engineering profession: just as we have legal secretaries/aides and physicians' assistants, I would like to see an acknowledgement (and commensurate pay structure) within engineering which distinguishes advanced knowledge and capabilities from those who just design things. If it takes larger PE fees, so be it. I would definitely expect my pay to keep up with those fees. Unfortunately, the powers-that-be will never buy this, as there are to many rich companies who will crush this implementation.

Brad

 

[CJM]

Rick,

I'm an Ontario P.Eng. presently living in North Carolina & working on obtaining my PE (I've already passed the FE/EIT exam, & am hoping to write the PE exam in April). As far as I know, the only state that has ratified the NAFTA agreement is Texas, so you can get a Texas PE through reciprocity. (This is particularly bizarre because Texas does not provide reciprocity to other states.) You can also obtain a Delaware PE with a Canadian P.Eng. & 10 years' post-licensure experience. However, you need to write the exams to obtain reciprocity in other states.

I am applying for a Delaware PE, as I will likely be relocating there in the summer. However, since I plan on consulting & will therefore need to be licensed in several other states (DE has too small a client base), I have elected to write the exam rather than using the P.Eng. exemption.

Although it is true that there is no technical exam for graduates of accredited CDN engineering schools, there is a Professional Practice exam that one must pass before getting a P.Eng. (in Ontario, at least -- I assume that things are the same in Manitoba). This is primarily because of Canada's rigid accreditation procedure, which has no counterpart in the US. The national US examination board ranks all CDN schools (even what I would consider the poorer ones) as equivalent to the top US engineering schools. The PE exam is therefore the only means of quality control for engineers in the US.

I agree with you on the fee issue. My wife is a lawyer who pays about $1,500 a year in licensing fees (not including insurance, which can be another $6,000 or so). I don't think I need to tell you which of us has the (considerably) larger salary.

Chris

 

[KernOily]

>3) Philosophical reasons--I think that lack of boards, bar exams, etc. is a significant contributor to the fact that our profession is significantly less-respected and less-well-paid than the other two major professions (law and medicine). I personally would like to see a stratification of the profession, much like legal secretaries vs. lawyers and Physician's Assistants vs. Doctors. The only way I see that happening is through a qualification process, and the closest that we have now is the PE. (I'll get off my soap box now).

Amen brother. Any fool can call himself an engineer and get away with it. Can't do that in the other professions. Look at the other occupations that are called 'engineers': operating engineers (heavy equipment operators), sound system engineers (band groupies with a lot of experience), locomotive engineers, etc. Think any of them ever heard of the First Law?

I say take the exam(s) and get registered. What can it hurt? It can only help. I assure you that the PE will get you hired if you are up against another job candidate and you two are otherwise equal. When I was at Fluor, PEs got $150 more per month than non-PEs. Not much money, I'll admit, but it will keep you in guitar strings and green fees for the month. The PE evinces several things: (1) you took a tough exam and passed it (2) you are known, and have demonstrated, to be morally and experientially above the herd to your engineering peers (3) you have the tenacity and drive to study for a tough exam several years after graduation. Those are all positives that any employer would love to have in a prospective employee. It is simply a hallmark of professionalism.

You should definitely take the FE while in school because there is tons of crap in there (like electric circuits) that you will never see again, so you should take it while that stuff is semi-fresh in your mind.

I took the PE two times. The first time I didn't take a review course and missed the pass-fail cutoff by 2 points. The next year I did take the review class and passed. The review class forced me into a regular homework regimen, which I didn't do the first time.

You're not going to stamp anything that is outside your area of professional expertise, anyway - they call that 'practice outside one's area of professional competence' and 'being in responsible charge'. That will get your butt sued off. I am covered by my company's general liability E&O insurance if I have to stamp anything. You can be dang sure that I will know what is behind the plans, calcs, design, whatever before my stamp goes on it if I'm the one in responsible charge.

In California you can't grandfather into the PE anymore, as far as I know. They changed the law a couple years ago. Everyone must take both exams. Other states are different but I think the NSPE and the various state boards are trying to make it uniform.

By the way, you are asking for trouble if you stamp the plans for you or your buddy's house addition or septic tank and you're not a licensed CE or SE. If the plan checker at the building dept. is sharp, they will catch it and reject your permit application. And, at the worst, if something happens to your addition, your insurance will not cover the loss because the plans weren't properly stamped and executed if so required by the local jurisdiction (building authority), assuming the insurance company finds out. The bimonthly digest from the Calif. State Board is full of disciplinary actions taken against engineers that did no-no's like that.

Get registered - you will not be sorry. It can only help.

Thanks!

Pete
P. J. (Pete) Chandler, PE
Mechanical, Piping, Thermal, Hydraulics
Processes Unlimited International, Inc.
Bakersfield, California USA

 

Hi, all,

I just got my FE/EIT. And I already worked for about one year in an engineering consulting firm. I was wondering whether this passing in FE/EIT will help me at least raise my salary a little bit (since my pay is really low now, lower than average in my area)? Besides, how long do I need to take my PE from now? Please advise. Thanks

 

[brad]

In my field, the FE/EIT doesn't mean a thing by itself. However, I admit that my particular industry is not largely driven by PE requirements.

The following is me stating my presumptions to the general industry. If I am wrong in this assessment, hopefully somebody will correct me.

As a certified PE myself, I put almost no stock in the FE/EIT. I am not demeaning FE/EIT's; rather it is my feeling that passing this test has merely shown that you have the skillset that should be expected of an engineering student. Congratulations on passing the exam. It does show that you have a desire for professional advancement and that you want to continue to improve in your field. However, until you have put in the time and passed the big test, I would be surprised if anybody views you as intrinsically worth more than before.

I am not meaning to sound harsh; I am happy to see more people take the FE/EIT, and I hope that more continue to get certified as PE's. Continue down that road. However, in my experience you have not yet distinguished yourself with regards to certification.

Again, I am stating from my experiences. It may be that this does not hold across all industries. Best of luck.

Brad