PEMB buildings from China? Engineering? 2

[Bradley5]

We are working on a couple projects with PEMB buildings. We primarily have only done the engineered footing work for such buildings on the past. A guy in the office reached out to a building supplier to find out they drop ship the building kit right from China? I am now very curious if this is how many are being fabricated and sold? I got on the phone to ask about engineered plans and he said "you may need to have an engineer in your state stamp the plans". In which I asked if they even have a P.E. on staff to stamp 'anything'. In short, I am questioning what we are getting into with that? We do hold a P.E. license but was not planning a budget around having to engineer the structure. I guess I am envisioning 'plans' showing up in Chinese symbols, and no quality data at all.

Anyone run into this? If this is how many are getting done, is there a reputable supplier that does in fact provide real engineering?

 

[phamENG]

No, and if somebody asked me to do it I'd struggle to restrain my laughter while hanging up the phone.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

Unless your PEMB is actually a Costco shed or something, that's nuts. And I would probably start reconsidering my business relationship with that supplier.

Which AISC Certified fabrication facility in China can the material be traced back to and how would/could you pursue the Chinese company for design information or potential lawsuits for stuff you find later?

 

[dik]

Do some research... it is likely comparable to PEMB packages manufactured in North America.

 

[Bradley5]

Do some research... it is likely comparable to PEMB packages manufactured in North America.

I would say that is why I am here asking. Trying to better understand how common this is, if at all.

 

[phamENG]

it is likely comparable to PEMB packages manufactured in North America.

If it doesn't come with the seal of a professional engineer licensed in the applicable jurisdiction and employed by the manufacturer, then the package is not comparable to those produced domestically by a member of the MBMA.

 

[dik]

It has to be sealable in the jurisdiction... concur. I'm not so sure the engineer has to be employed by the manufacturer.

 

[phamENG]

It has to be sealable in the jurisdiction... concur. I'm not so sure the engineer has to be employed by the manufacturer.

Have you seen a PEMB submittal lately? Without access to the software, I don't think there's an ethical way any engineer could put their seal on one of things. And I seriously doubt they'll be willing to hand over a license to that to some outside consultant.

 

[jerseyshore]

I have not seen this exact thing from a PEMB building, but in the last year we've received 3 or 4 requests to sign & seal European (I think two were from Turkey) house plans all along the barrier island by me. There must be a salesman in Seaside or something. They were all custom extruded shapes. Basically impossible to model even if you wanted to try.

I have not heard of any of them getting built yet, but like we were talking about in the other thread, there's always a PE out there willing to sign anything for a few $$.

 

[Bradley5]

I have not seen this exact thing from a PEMB building, but in the last year we've received 3 or 4 requests to sign & seal European (I think two were from Turkey) house plans all along the barrier island by me. There must be a salesman in Seaside or something. They were all custom extruded shapes. Basically impossible to model even if you wanted to try.

I have not heard of any of them getting built yet, but like we were talking about in the other thread, there's always a PE out there willing to sign anything for a few $$.

Oh you 100% nailed that! Dime a dozen of the people that say "we just need this stamped", like "oh, no biggy, here ya go, I now own a lifetime of risk".

Years back we were looking to use some steel fabricated roof trusses. Says "engineered" right on them...lmao. We ended up modeling them to realize they could not even come close to covering our load criteria. Further reached out to the original PE that stamped them in another state. He was Indian and said "relax man". We just don't roll that way here. If we can't find an ethical path through certified materials and design, we don't sign.

I was sort of hoping there was a path with these import buildings, but the first thing that came to mind was the fabrication and welds. But reality is with a county official, you could probably poke a liability waver or two in a sealed plan. Would it hold water in court, IDK. I mean without material properties, how do you proceed?

I was wondering if companies were actually doing an ethical job of spec'ing and testing materials coming in. That's really the only way IMO.

 

[human909]

TLDR; Foreign design and supply can offer savings, it can also be extremely expensive for the client when things are inadequate. Stamping it is possible but do so with eyes wide open.


Growing the balls to be able to ethically sign off on structures which have been engineered by others can be both confidence boosting and quite lucrative. I know one engineer who happily does that in fact I believe I think he enjoys the challenge. He is also regularly and expert witness in lawsuits and is no cowboy.

I myself signoff on imported silos which are all foreign steel, custom shapes and custom designs. Silos likely even more complicated than PEMBs.

I have no problems analysing and signing off on a PEMB if somebody wanted to pay the fees. But for a foreign PEMB is it worth it?

I went through this with a local PEMB after it was built. The result for the client wasn't pretty. They needed extensive strengthening works and my fees weren't cheap for completely re-engineering an existing structure.

 

[phamENG]

But for a foreign PEMB is it worth it?

That's a really good and practical way to approach it. Most people who buy metal building systems do so because of their perceived low cost. In other words, they are usually cheap clients. Not always - a MBS is incredibly cost efficient if used for the right purpose - but most of them are cheap. If they're taking it a step further and going with the absolute lowest price at the expense of any recognizable quality controls or engineering, then I seriously doubt they'll be willing to pay for that engineering to figure out if it's any good. Especially when a 'no' will mean they paid for the engineering and didn't get a building. For the same price, that engineer could have designed a traditional steel frame and they could have installed it, or just purchased a building from an MBMA member and known what they were getting from the beginning.

 

[dik]

Have you seen a PEMB submittal lately?

Yup... the engineer would have to have access to the program and methodology. In checking local PEMB structures, I often have difficulty checking some of the design. I don't like them, but they are a bit of a marvel of engineering.

 

[XR250]

Yup... the engineer would have to have access to the program and methodology. In checking local PEMB structures, I often have difficulty checking some of the design. I don't like them, but they are a bit of a marvel of engineering.

How would one get access? Also, someone would have to probably have worked for a PEMB manufacturer already to understand the ins and outs of the software and the liberties with code and physics taken.

 

[Rabbit12]

How would one get access? Also, someone would have to probably have worked for a PEMB manufacturer already to understand the ins and outs of the software and the liberties with code and physics taken.

I have access to a PEMB manufacturer's program. It's something our company negotiated with one of the big players in the industry. It's definitely a black box and I'm not an expert user but I can use it well enough to get decent preliminary loads to use for initial foundation sizing, but I wouldn't say I'd be comfortable stamping a design done using it.

 

[phamENG]

the engineer would have to have access to the program and methodology.

And therein lies the rub. I imagine @Rabbit12 's company isn't a small shop - I know I lack the clout to sit down at a negotiating table with a major MBS supplier - and even their access is likely tied up with all sorts of use restrictions. I bet if the company that gave them access got wind that they were using it to check a competitor's product for the purpose of making it marketable on their turf, they'd pull that access in a hurry. And probably sue for damages.

 

[Bradley5]

TLDR; Foreign design and supply can offer savings, it can also be extremely expensive for the client when things are inadequate. Stamping it is possible but do so with eyes wide open.


Growing the balls to be able to ethically sign off on structures which have been engineered by others can be both confidence boosting and quite lucrative. I know one engineer who happily does that in fact I believe I think he enjoys the challenge. He is also regularly and expert witness in lawsuits and is no cowboy.

I myself signoff on imported silos which are all foreign steel, custom shapes and custom designs. Silos likely even more complicated than PEMBs.

I have no problems analysing and signing off on a PEMB if somebody wanted to pay the fees. But for a foreign PEMB is it worth it?

I went through this with a local PEMB after it was built. The result for the client wasn't pretty. They needed extensive strengthening works and my fees weren't cheap for completely re-engineering an existing structure.

I would be curious how that is purchased and evaluated? Do you get foreign calcs? Are these Chinese or something more substantial like German? I think it's one thing when bringing in a high quality item. Quite another knowing full well a foreign purchase is a cost cutting tactic. As I always say, China will cut every corner they can, so then you have to go find them. But some stuff is built pretty well. Like they literally did a good job of "copying" a USA design they ripped off.

I would be curious what approach you used to assess the PEMB? Sounds like the typical case where a building got done, then the code guy wanted papers.....?

We got into designing and stamping wood post frame buildings. Oh, the power of Excel! Coming from aerospace, have some of the FEA toys and such, but even in that biz, so much gets done in Excel. I would guess an MBS makes sense from the manufacturing side, where you need to lean on and trust software outputs to accelerate production. I'd almost be curious to take one for a test drive, just to see how all that works. The complex shapes of the main frames of a PEMB make even that less fun than a simple beam calc.

Then the variables in fixed and pinned foundations. Start asking that question and you will get crickets from most.

 

[dik]

How would one get access?

By dealing with the fabricator.

 

[dik]

Do you get foreign calcs?

Some foreign countries also speak English, or whatever.

 

[kissymoose]

Further reached out to the original PE that stamped them in another state. He was Indian and said "relax man".

If I reached out to an engineer regarding concern for inadequacy in their design and they dismissed me, my next call would be to the state board. Duty to the public and all that. We need more accountability in our profession for insufficient design.