Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
Performance Test
- Thread starter BZLAM21
- Start date
LittleInch
Petroleum
You can't.
but you can often extrapolate so if say design temp was 40C summer, actual only 30C, but some flow or component was at 97%, then you could conclude that at 40C it would fail or not operate to full performance.
Vague question so vague answer
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
but you can often extrapolate so if say design temp was 40C summer, actual only 30C, but some flow or component was at 97%, then you could conclude that at 40C it would fail or not operate to full performance.
Vague question so vague answer
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
Summer and winter performance are generic names for what the specified conditions represent. You still calculate or otherwise determine what power output etc should be for the exact observed temperatures, which may or may not be exactly at the summer performance temperature specified. As LittleInch says, interpolate or project the specified performance numbers at the specified conditions to the performance at actual conditions observed on that winter or summer day testing takes place. If not agreeing with the projected values, write it up as failed.
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."
- Thread starter
- #4
yes I agree with you the question is vast
I don't have enough experience with performance tests. I would like to know the impact of climatic conditions,temperature and relative humidity, on the equipments (exchanger,compressor,pump,air cooler) during performance tests.
I've heard of simulation software.
In this case I would like to know how to interpolate or project the specified conditions in order to conclude the performance tests with
EPC
I don't have enough experience with performance tests. I would like to know the impact of climatic conditions,temperature and relative humidity, on the equipments (exchanger,compressor,pump,air cooler) during performance tests.
I've heard of simulation software.
In this case I would like to know how to interpolate or project the specified conditions in order to conclude the performance tests with
EPC
LittleInch
Petroleum
Well first you need to understand in great detail the impact of the climatic conditions on the relevant parts under test and then monitor as much as possible the performance of the items. If you have more than one reading - you usually need three or four to do some sort of projection or interpolation - then you can see a trend which might show that the anticipated performance of the item would not be met at the higher or lower temperature.
But good luck in claiming that the equipment does not perform as required though if you're not testing at the specified humidity or temperature.
Only when there is a clear lack of margin at the lower or higher temperature (summer / winter) when you are in fact operating as I described above will you stand even 1% of getting anything out of an EPC contractor....
A lot of thigs it is difficult to know which will top out first when subject to the limits of design and it could be some small motor or HX is undersized but is crucial, e.g. an oil cooler so the unit trips on high oil temperature. Or something gets more viscous at the lower temperature or freezes when it works OK at 5C.
One unit I had used small fuel gas let down units for the control fluid at 7 bar, let down from 55. OK most of the time, a cold snap arrived and the controllers all iced up due to JT cooling and the Main FG supply tripped and the whole 1200MW power station tripped (!!). Operators needed to spend all night pouring hot water over the inlet lines to warm the gas up.
Remember last winter when Texas froze its nuts off in part because huge amount of the gas system wasn't able to operate below 0C.
So you never know what will happen until it happens, but test as best you can and if something is operating at 100%, well below its design temp then it won't operate at the actual design temp.
But the EPC is never ever going to accept that so bear that in mind assuming you are the client and not the EPC....
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
But good luck in claiming that the equipment does not perform as required though if you're not testing at the specified humidity or temperature.
Only when there is a clear lack of margin at the lower or higher temperature (summer / winter) when you are in fact operating as I described above will you stand even 1% of getting anything out of an EPC contractor....
A lot of thigs it is difficult to know which will top out first when subject to the limits of design and it could be some small motor or HX is undersized but is crucial, e.g. an oil cooler so the unit trips on high oil temperature. Or something gets more viscous at the lower temperature or freezes when it works OK at 5C.
One unit I had used small fuel gas let down units for the control fluid at 7 bar, let down from 55. OK most of the time, a cold snap arrived and the controllers all iced up due to JT cooling and the Main FG supply tripped and the whole 1200MW power station tripped (!!). Operators needed to spend all night pouring hot water over the inlet lines to warm the gas up.
Remember last winter when Texas froze its nuts off in part because huge amount of the gas system wasn't able to operate below 0C.
So you never know what will happen until it happens, but test as best you can and if something is operating at 100%, well below its design temp then it won't operate at the actual design temp.
But the EPC is never ever going to accept that so bear that in mind assuming you are the client and not the EPC....
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
I sugest you to make tests in summer with several crude mix feeds, then repeat the tests in winter with the same crude feeds.
After that you get enough data to take conclusions.
Depending where you are located you have to develop an energie conservation plan to your refinery to answer to your climatic conditions.
After that you get enough data to take conclusions.
Depending where you are located you have to develop an energie conservation plan to your refinery to answer to your climatic conditions.
@BLZAM21
What is written in Contract or Guarantee Agreement about this performance test? Are Parties able to change a key part of EPC when that is about to over and a major part of money to change owner?
Is there a requirement a Contractor shall wait almost a year till proper climate conditions occur? What about a case of a mild summer/winter - shall Contractor wait one more year while a proper one will come?
And who will reimburse Contractor profit missed during this 1-2 years? And what Parties shall do when after 2 years in operation it will turn out Operator has modified some equipment/systems? Is Operator allowed to charge depreciation during thi period and what will be (over)tax caused by this fact? What Parties shall do if a process unit will become damaged as a consequence of a failure or an uncontrollable event.
Think over how such relations actually work and what EPC-contract would YOU sign if you would be a Decision Maker and how would you explain shareholders why this EPC is much more expensive than previous ones.
Performance test is just a final stage confirming that Contract is over, Parties has (no) claims against each other, and the rest of money is allowed to be transferred.
What is written in Contract or Guarantee Agreement about this performance test? Are Parties able to change a key part of EPC when that is about to over and a major part of money to change owner?
Is there a requirement a Contractor shall wait almost a year till proper climate conditions occur? What about a case of a mild summer/winter - shall Contractor wait one more year while a proper one will come?
And who will reimburse Contractor profit missed during this 1-2 years? And what Parties shall do when after 2 years in operation it will turn out Operator has modified some equipment/systems? Is Operator allowed to charge depreciation during thi period and what will be (over)tax caused by this fact? What Parties shall do if a process unit will become damaged as a consequence of a failure or an uncontrollable event.
Think over how such relations actually work and what EPC-contract would YOU sign if you would be a Decision Maker and how would you explain shareholders why this EPC is much more expensive than previous ones.
Performance test is just a final stage confirming that Contract is over, Parties has (no) claims against each other, and the rest of money is allowed to be transferred.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question