Performing work for an Architect 3

[azogr]

Let me bounce this question off of you guys to see what you all have been doing.

I have been asked by an architect to size some footings for a project in a state which I am not currently registered. The structure is a low hazard structure which does not require an engineer's seal, only an architects. If I were licensed in the state I would not think twice about doing the work but even though I would not be sealing the work I am uncertain about this kind of arrangement.

How are the architects normally doing this work when an engineer is not required? Are they just pulling sizes off some standard charts and calling it good? In a way I am glad that this architect is seeking the help of a structural engineer and I know him indirectly through a common friend so I would like to help him out.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Thanks

 

[JAE]

I would double check on the requirement for engineering license participation vs. an architect-adequate situation. Some states do allow architects to perform the engineering tasks on certain smaller structures - but I'd personally make sure.

If that is the case, then providing the architect with engineering services is not a problem in my book. You are technically not "practicing engineering" without a license since the definition of engineering practice usually includes a reference to the types of structures that require a license.

So legally OK. Ethically - that's up to you but I don't see any issue ethically either.

 

[azogr]

That seems resonable to me. I have double checked with the state and they did confirm that only an architects stamp is required for this structure. I suppose I could give a second call to the state and try to talk to someone a little higher since it is possible I was just talking to a secretary or an assistant.

Thanks for the quick feedback!

 

[JStephen]

It's hard to say without reading the state rules- and that might not help, even (which state, by the way?)

Suppose I manufacture widgits. Design of these is exempt due to their being a manufactured product. But the way I understand most of the engineering laws, if I retain you as an engineering consultant to design those widgits, you're still practicing engineering whether the product needs a PE seal or not.

 

[azogr]

The state is Illinois.

 

[DaveAtkins]

I am an SE in Illinois (I think JAE is, as well). I believe the rules state that an Architect can perform structural engineering work, and an SE can perform architectural work.

Anyway, this architect is doing you a favor--he is taking the liability for your work.

DaveAtkins

 

[chuck1870]

I am not registerted in Illinois, but when I contacted the Illinois registration board a few years ago about the same type of situation, they told me that the architect absolutely could not do structural engineering. I would contact them, if I were you.

 

[prost]

Any danger of someone coming after you the engineer that helps the architect out in this way if the architect messes up?

 

[prost]

If I understand the term 'sealed drawing', doesn't apply here--because the engineer IS NOT registered to practice in that particular state, then the engineer cannot 'seal' the drawing, right? Personally I would be concerned with my professional liability, since I am 'practicing without a license.' It seems odd that it is ok for non registered engineers to be doing what looks to me to be within the scope of a registered engineer's job. Who decides what is 'simple enough' or 'smalle enough' for an architect to sign off? If the whole point of the professional registration laws is to 'protect public safety' then who decides when the public safety is endangered or when it isn't?

 

[archeng59]

In my opinion, if you design the footing you are providing engineering services whether or not you provide sealed and signed documents. Most states require the engineer to be licensed in the state before they are legally allowed to provide engineering services. I am working on licensure in New Jersey. As I understand their laws, you can provide engineering services if the length of the project is less than 30 days, no sealed documents are required, and you are licensed in another state. Otherwise, you have to be licensed in NJ to practice engineering in that state. There is no law like that in Oklahoma. However, perhaps Illinois has a law similar to NJ.

 

[JStephen]

I find a "Design Manual" online here:

http://www.idfpr.com/dpr/WHO/AR/Design_Code_Manual.pdf

It makes the following statement under the Definitions part:
"Exempt Building or Structure (Architecture)
“Exempt building or structure”, as used in this manual, means any building or structure not subject to the
requirements of the Illinois Architecture Practice Act of 1989... A building or structure located outside of
the corporate limits of any city or village which is to be used for farm purposes, a detached single family residence
on a single lot, and a two-family residence of wood frame construction on a single lot, not more than two stories and
basement in height, and interior design services for buildings which do not involve life safety or structural changes are not subject to the Act...(This exemption does not apply to the practice of professional engineering or structural engineering.)"

It sounds to me like this class of structure is exempt from the architecture act, but any engineering done on them is still subject to the engineering board rules.

 

[azogr]

I have another call in with the board to see if I can get some clarification on this matter. It just seems odd to me that they would let an architect perform this design but prohibit me from giving him input. I would think that he is ultimatly the responsible charge and would be required to review the information I give to him to make sure that he believes it suitable for the project. What if I were an employee of this architectural firm and I put this information together for him which he then reviews signs and seals? Would that be a violation? If so then that would mean that any E.I.T. who works on a project in Illinois would be in violation since he is not personally licensed to practice. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[JStephen]

Well, I'd look at it like this: You can put a Bandaid on yourself, on your kid, on your kid's friend, and that's okay. But when you hang up a sign that says "Bandaid Applyer" and charge strangers for the service, then you're practicing medicine, even though it's still just a Bandaid.

That's not to say the PE Board thinks like that- but let us know what you find.

 

[azogr]

I'll keep you posted.

 

[azogr]

Ok, I know you have all been waiting breathlessly and here is the answer.

I can not perform this work for the architect nor can anyone else, unless they are an employee of the architect physically located in his office and directly under his control in a training situation. The architect needs to be the one perfroming the calculations and can not simply review the calculations performed by another party. Once again this is in regard to the state of Illinois. It was also implied that this applies to EIT's performing work for a PE in the state.

So I guess that is that...