PE's In Federal Government 1

[JimmyJunior]

Hello:

I work for a Federal Agency as a Senior Electrical Engineer and have been a PE for 27 years. Our engineering department is multi-disciplined. All of our Branch Managers are PEs also. There are presently several electrical engineers working here, but I am the only PE. Our Agency does not require engineers to be PEs.

Here are my questions: Can our branch managers decide matters in electrical designs and applications overiding my professional opinion and using the opinions of electrical technicians as their decision basis and still remain safe from an ethical point of view?

Are they practicing outside of their area of experise?

Any liability issues for me? I carry liability (malpractice) insurance separately.

Thank you,

 

[PSE]

Can you be an ethical person and work in government these days ? Sorry, I must be a bit cynical today. It seems a bit ironic that while the states control the licensing of engineers, and as a public entity, the PE is not a requirement for it's own engineering employees (perhaps some states do require it). I do not think the PE is a requirement for a federal job either.

It may vary by state but I believe that the state is essentially immune from suit or prosecution. This immunity would extend to you as an employee. Are you actively using your stamp in your work?

In terms of overriding your opinions, do the reasons, (assuming there are ones given) seem valid? The branch managers may or may not be making decisions outside of their area of expertise depending upon their backgrounds. As you indicate, they are PE's as well and in theory should be ethically bound to constrain their practice of engineering to their area(s) of competence. Concern should be first addressed to them I would think and then if necessary, the licensing board.

Regards,

 

[PSE]

I should have noted the title of your posting a bit better. PE's in federal government. I believe the immunity from prosecution still stands though.

Regards,

 

[sms]

I don't know what state you live in, but in Texas there is an exemption for Federal employees.

§ 1001.054. Federal Officer or Employee
An officer or employee of the United States is exempt from the licensing requirements of this chapter during the time the officer or employee is engaged in the practice of engineering for the United States in this state.


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[sms]

Sorry, I clicked the submit button too soon. The bottom line is that if they are in charge, and they are exempt from license requirements, then there is no problem from the standpoint of law or practice.

If they are making decisions outside of their expertise, there is still some ethical question... especially if such decisions put people in danger.

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[BJC]

JimmyJunior
You don't have to be registered nor does your boss. To require you to do so would give the states power to requlate the federal goverment. There are volumes of court cases on what the federal and state goverments can do to each other. Lots of early court cases ( Several of which were covered in civics and history classes, none of which I can remember) that established that. The issue is States haveing control ove the Federal Goverment.

A federal agency could design and build a bridge on federal property that wouldn't hold up a compact car and the states couldn't do anything about it.
None of the designs that the Feds have done is required to be done by a registered engineer. Your boss could sketch it out on a napkin and have a carpenter build it. He may be violating a federal rule or law but the state goverment is out of the process.
If as a civilian engineer you bid on a federal porject for a a Navy Base, the National Forest, Embassy etc. the agency issuing the contract will usually require that the design be done by a registered engineer. The Navy can accept a design for an installation in Hawaii stamped by an engineer from North Dakota. It's just good practice to get a job done by someone who knows what they are doing. They usually look as a PE as a PE.

Your throwing your money away on insurance.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

See what EM 1110-1-8152 PROFESSIONAL REGISTRATION has to say...

 

[stevenal]

Too much side noise going on here. Whether manager is required to be licensed for his position is beside the point. OP says he is licensed and suggests strongly that he is practicing outside his area of competence. If this is true, the licensing board may have something to say about it and his license may be at risk.

Now as for Jimmy, who is also licensed: If he has evidence that a PE is practicing outside his area of competence, PE ethics compel him to report it.

 

[JStephen]

If your work and organization are exempt from engineering registration laws, I don't think the fact that you are registered would give you any more liability than an unregistered person in that same position.

The way it's described, the situation does sound like an ethical problem for the branch managers (not necessarily for you, unless you're expected to be supervising their work). Of course, they may view it differently.

 

[stevenal]

I disagree. When accepting the license, a PE agrees to follow the code of ethics, regardless of where or even if he was employed. As an example, the holder of a CDL can lose his license when operating the family car in violation, even though a CDL is not required for this vehicle.

Lots of exemptions in the laws to allow non-PEs in many positions. I have not yet seen the law that exempts a PE from following the rules once he is licensed. Feel free to post a link if you have one.

 

[zdas04]

stevenal,
The converse of your argument is that "a non-PE does not agree to follow the code of ethics" and I think a bunch of us are having a problem with that implied argument.

A practicing engineer agrees to follow the engineering code of ethics, period. The PE adds some specific criminal and civil penalties to someone who violates this, but ethics are not the exclusive domain of PE's.



David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

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The harder I work, the luckier I seem

 

[JStephen]

Stevenal, if you'll re-read my post, I think you'll find the position you're disagreeing with simply isn't there.

To apply your analogy of the driver's license, suppose two people are driving tractors in fields when they have a wreck. One is a licensed driver, one isn't. Does the fact that one has a license make him any more liable in this case?

Your position seems to be that the original poster could have license problems due to actions he takes while doing exempt work. But that wasn't the situation described in the original post.

 

[stevenal]

David,

I don't mean to imply that non-PEs are unethical. Still, the only time I expressly agreed to the code of ethics was when I received a license that could be put at risk.

Let's try something not so contentious. To renew an active license, I need PDHs. I need them regardless of where or if I work. No PDHs, no renewal.

 

[BJC]

"Here are my questions: Can our branch managers decide matters in electrical designs and applications overiding my professional opinion and using the opinions of electrical technicians as their decision basis and still remain safe from an ethical point of view."

He probably can. If he ask you to stamp or sign the drawings then he and you have a problem. You are ethically bound not to until you are satisfied with the design.
Is you boss unethical?
Hard to say without specifics. Many unregistered are good and competent engineers. Many engineers ask for input from technitions and electricans. I would have to know the specifics of his design and changes he has made to yours.

Are the chnages similar to the one mangages in the EPA have made to scientific studies done by PHDs in the EPA? Those changes were by unscientifically trained people and made specifically for political reasons. They were just unethical they are probably criminal.

 

[zdas04]

Stevenal,
I didn't mean to imply that you thought that, it is just a logical corallary of what you did say.

I had an "Engineering Ethics" course at university where they talked a lot about the requirements of an ethical engineer.

As I recall (this is getting a bit fuzzy in my mind) there was an ethics statement in the EIT application. Since a lot of engineering programs are requiring that students pass the EIT prior to graduating (a move I heartily support) and a bunch of professors in other schools encourage EIT, then a large number of industry-exempt engineers will have signed an ethics statement.

David