Piping Valves are supplied in open or in closed position? 7

[cjabhijit]

Dear All,

Could you pls advice whether the valves ordered are going to get supplied at site with open or in close position?
Question is applicable for any kind of routine piping valve i.e. Gate/Ball/Globe etc. but at the moment it is more specific for Ball valve (lever).

Pls let me know.

Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit

 

[pennpiper]

cjabhijit,
Wow!
I never gave that much thought. But now you have started my mind racing around thinking of many possibilities for bad results one way or the other.
It will be interesting to see what input you get.


Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results

 

[bimr]

There is no standard shipping method. To save freight costs, the valves are packaged in the smallest shipping container in the safest shipping arrangement.

 

[MFJewell]

Haven't paid much attention to it, but all the valves I have bought in the last 6 months (about 30 gate valves, 12 ball valves, 2 ASCO solenoid valves) have all arrived in the closed position except for one of the solenoid valves since it was a NO valve.

 

[bcd]

For most valves, it is typical they are shipped closed to prevent debris from entering critical sealing areas. Butterfly valves are also usually closed to avoid damage to the sealing edge of the disc which can project out past the flange face. Ball valves are normally open so that any dirt or debris can easily pass through and not stick to the surface of the ball and possibly scratch and damage the ball or seat. Also this normally puts the handle in line with the flow port so the overall shipping package is smaller.

 

[cjabhijit]

Thanks penpiper for the encouraging feedback....it means a lot when it comes from you.

Thank you bimr for your inputs & stating that it is the motto of the supplier / received to have the container as small as possible however MFJewell & bcd is having a valid concern of valve getting damaged due to debris so are sent in closed position most of the times (except ball valve in open for the same reason).

You made my day.

Currently I am checking few isos & on all the isos ball valves are shown in closed position on the iso. Wanted to know why it is so. Hence asked the question.
Iso point of view if you have any thoughts pls share.



Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit

 

[DSB123]

If the lever is on the Ball valve then this should indicate whether the valve is open or closed. If the lever is parallel to the inlet and outlet then it is open (normally). Anyway with a ball valve just look down the open end to see if you can see right through the bore. If you can't then it is closed!!!

 

[MFJewell]

I should also mention, the ball valves and solenoid valves came with plastic plugs/caps covering the ends to prevent debris from entering the valve before installation.

 

[BJI]

Not sure I agree with bcd, the position is really only determined by packaging and handling. Spindle down is more compact, ball valve open is more compact, that is it. It may be an added advantage to try and prevent debris ingress but usually this is not an issue with packaging of smaller valves (like MFJewell also said). With larger valves the biggest issue I see is corrosion while in transport and site storage, which is a separate issue.

Just my 2c

 

[Gator]

Ball valves are shown in closed position on the iso likely because this indicates where the handle will be; everyone knows the orientation of the handle when it's in the closed position.

 

[chicopee]

If the handles are in the way thereby showing closed valves, is there any reason not to remove the handles for shipping?

 

[pennpiper]

cjabhijit,
You wrote:
"Currently I am checking few isos & on all the isos ball valves are shown in closed position on the iso. Wanted to know why it is so. Hence asked the question."

My answer to your question is as follows. It is not the function of a Piping Isometric to indicate a Valve 'Open or Closed' position. The Isometric will indicated the existence of a Valve and the type of valve for material Take-off purposes only.

Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results

 

[Compositepro]

A ball valve drawing on an ISO is far more recognizable as a ball valve when the handle is at 90 than at zero. As pennpiper said, it is just a valve symbol, not an indication of open or closed.

 

[MickMc]

Agree with Pennpiper and Compositepro regarding function of Iso, unusual IMO to show handle orientation on Iso which is P&ID function.

 

[Ehzin]

Showing handle orientation on the ISO handle COULD be used to indicate installation orientation in the closed position. With a lever handle, it may be warranted to have the valve orientated in a way where the handle isn't in a walking path where it could prone to accidental operation. The open position is typically inline with the pipe therefore unlikely to catch clothing or whatnot while closed position could warrant more scrutiny as it could jut out into a walkway. Before my time I heard about a unit tripping due to a single 3/4" ball valve with a lever handle and so the transition to oval handles began.

Thanks,
Ehzin

 

[cjabhijit]

Thanks all for your thoughtful inputs so far...

In general, while checking isos I am careful or concerned for the actuator or handwheel orientation on the isometric for valves.
Because if it is given to site do decide to orient valves the way they want to....we will have troubles as mentioned by Ehzin above.

Let's discuss further as I see different opinions on this criteria.

Pls note, I have standard iso checklist which also has this point to check.



Thanks & Regards,
Abhijit

 

[lhwingking]

I think,

If P&ID shows a valve closed, that valve has to be shown closed in isometric.
Valves have to be shown open/closed in isometrics as shown in P&IDs because they will be erected as shown in isometrics.
Valves that have to be normally closed/open during operation will be represented in P&IDs accordingly. Hence, they have to erected accordingly. Hence, they have to be shown in isometrics accordingly.

Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like an armor and it can never hurt you.

 

[pennpiper]

lhwingking,
You wrote:
"If P&ID shows a valve closed, that valve has to be shown closed in isometric."
Okay, on the one hand let's think of all the different types of Valves (Gate, Globe, Ball, Plug, Butterfly, Diaphram, Pinch, etc).

On the other hand, we should all be aware that normally NOT ALL valves on a P&ID have the Open/Closed position indicated. Now let's consider the different Standard ways that an "Open or Closed" Valve is indicated on a P&ID (NO=Normally Open, NC=Normally Closed, CSO= Car Seal Open, CSC= Car Seal Closed).

With some thought I believe You will all agree the most simple way to indicate a Valve on an Isometric is to use the generic Valve (Type) Symbol and then only if indicated on the P&ID then include the Simple Open or Closed indication (as shown above).

We should also recognize that an Isometric is not normally used as the primary "Tool" for Plant Start-Up.


Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results

 

[lhwingking]

pennpiper,

I completely agree.

If a P&ID specifically shows a valve open or closed, the valve has to be shown in the isometric accordingly.

I also agree that not all valves in a P&ID have the open/close position indicated.

Also, yes, an isometric is not normally used as the primary tool for start up.

Thanks for the response.


Never forget what you are. The rest of the world won't. Wear it like an armor and it can never hurt you.

 

[pennpiper]

lhwingking,
You wrote:
"If a P&ID specifically shows a valve open or closed, the valve has to be shown in the isometric accordingly."

If this is a true statement then Isogen (or some other Isometric software) must already have symbols for ALL the different Valve types in both the open and closed position.

Please show us the existing Open & Closed Isogen symbols for the following:
- Gate Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Globe Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Butterfly Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Plug Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Ball Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Diaphram Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Pinch Valve - Open= -- Closed=
- Needle Valve - Open= -- Closed=
Plus any others you may have.

Sometimes its possible to do all the right things and still get bad results