Plan issue

[TravisMack]

I hope everyone had a safe holiday weekend.

I have an interesting situation and wonder how some of you would handle it. We are doing a shop drawing based on a complete engineered set of drawings. The plans were done by a PE and approved by the local AHJ. Now, there are many conflicts with the plan and NFPA 13. We have tried to send RFI's for the issues, but the engineer has said that it is not in his scope of work to handle RFI's or construction management issues on the project. I realize these RFI's should have been handled at bid time, but that did not happen.

So, when we have heads that are spaced too far from soffits, sprinklers over spaced for the hazard (160 sq ft in OH1/OH2 areas), improper heads used in concealed spaces (flat concealed space requiring specially listed heads) and several others, how would you proceed?

The AHJ is not much help because he already approved the plans. The PE is not willing to work to correct the errors. Should we fix the plans to install a proper system per NFPA 13 or do we install the engineered plans even though they are incorrect? This would require changing a PE sealed set of contract drawings. I know what we are going to do, but I wanted to get others opinions on this.

This is not meant to be a battle of PE v NICET, as this drawing could just have easily been done by a NICET IV or whatever. In this particular case, it was a NICET IV that did the plans and sealed by the PE. They both work in the same office, so it is not an issue of just paying for a stamp either. It is a question of how you would handle a shop drawing when you have an approved contract drawing that is blatantly conflicting with NFPA 13 in many areas.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

My first inclination would be to stick it to him hard but I learned to never do that because we have all had little issues along the way. We live in glass houses and it isn't wise to start throwing rocks.

Did he have 12 pages of specifications instructing that pipe dope be placed only on the pipe and not inside the fittings?

I would make the necessary corrections and install it the right way.

Why did he do the drawings when it is so obvious he doesn't know what he is doing?

 

[TravisMack]

This one is really strange. This is typically a decent engineering firm. Everyone make mistakes. This firm has the experience in this stuff. I don't personally know them, but have done shop drawings from several of their plans without issues such as this.

I don't know if he just under-bid it and is now trying to hide and make it all go away. It is just a weird situation. Maybe there are payment issues and he is not willing to help until his contract is honored? I really have no idea.

We are going to fix the drawing, re-seal the drawings and submit for approval through the AHJ again to make everything correct. It just scares me that some contractors would have just installed from those plans without questioning. I am glad that I work for some pretty ethical companies that are willing to go this extra step to make it right.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[pipesnpumps]

Why does the AHJ not care? Just because he already accepted them and he doesn't want to be sued for missing it the first time? I understand that is the norm in state/local government, but it just doesn't set right with me.. as you said, "it just scares me."

A halfway decent AHJ should have caught it. I got a resubmitted set of plans/calcs in this afternoon. Mains went from 4" to 6", after they tried to slip one by me.

Ideally this fix should go against the errors and omissions insurance of the Engineering firm that produced the sealed drawings, if they were working plans.. Of course that would require legal action. If I were in your shoes I would probably just suck it up too, as part of the cost of doing business..

The new commissioning standard and guideline in development may help fix alot of this for areas where it is used. To me "commissioning" is a code word meaning to hire a 3rd party to catch the mistakes you paid the 1st party good money to design correctly.

Real world knowledge doesn't fall out of the sky on a parachute, but rather is gained in small increments during moments of panic or curiosity.

 

[TravisMack]

My customer is paying me to do the right thing. They have negotiated with the GC to do all of the changes at cost so the sprinkler contractor does not lose money for doing the right thing.

The AHJ was not going to force a resubmittal by the EOR. However, he will of course review our plan for permitting.

It is just one of those crazy jobs that gets all the way to this point, then the sprinkler contractor says, "whoa!" I see way too many of these.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[NJ1]

As I mention in another thread where SimplexGrinnell was sued. I do not care who approved it or who designs the system. If is wrong it needs to be fix per code. Present the arguments in a educated manner but if it does not get you anywhere you must sent certified letter stating the issues. Point blank. Trust me you will get a response asap.