Powerless MEP Engineers 1

[cry22]

Has it come to your attention that we MEP Engineers are the slaves of the construction industry?
The ones with the least power.
Take an example, one cannot built a home without a structural engineer stamp. One cannot built a house without an architect or without a civil engineer stamp.

Yet, any one can build a house without having a Mechanical Engineer or Electrical Engineer stamp plans. Contractors can pull a building permit without a PE stamp.

AND to top it all, we as Mechanical engineers for example cannot install or contract out any installation of HVAC or plumbing work without a license. We cannot even buy an air conditioner that we specify for our own home unless we go through a contractor who will pull the permit without the PE stamp.

I tell you, every industry has a true tough society that lobbies for its members. What do we have? "for-profit" ASHRAE? ASHRAE actually makes life tougher and tougher with all its ASHRAE 90.1, 62, 15 that we need to learn with all the updates without being paid a nickel extra for it.

We need to lobby to pass laws that prohibit anyone from obtaining a permit for anything unless stamped by a PE, just like any other trade.

Try to practice medecine or law without the proper accreditation and you'll see.

What's your take?

 

[GregLocock]

Well it is nice to belong to a trade union. Ask the doctors. Any other restrictive practices always come in handy as well.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ykee]

I don't think there would be much interest or benefit in electrical engineers providing electrical designs for houses. The code is pretty prescriptive, and it is pretty much cookie cutter. The hard part is the installation, which is why the electrician needs to pull a permit.

Professional engineers responsibility is to the public, and when installing equipment for residential, the risk is not in design, but in bad installation. I've not heard that you can't buy an air conditioner without a permit, that seems a little extreme, aren't you free to do work on your own home?

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I think the architects have it wrapped up. They can sign off on ANYTHING or so it seems. For example - as a Civil Engineer that practices structural and have for 30 years - I can't design a 2x4 rafter in Illinois but an Architect can. I can't design a structure over 20,000 cubic feet in Missouri w/o an Architect - even a simple warehouse!! But an Architect can!!

So - like I tell my co-workers - "You want a little cheese with that whine???"

I do!!

BTW - I do AGREE w/ you!!

 

[Dinosaur]

I am not aware of a P.E. or structural engineer being required for basic home plans. Is this common in places apart from the SE US?

 

[cry22]

Next time you drive by a multi-million dolars mention being built, check out the dctwork before it is covered.
I've seen multiple beams, no deeper than 12", with contractor cutting 8x8 holes in them to run his flexible ductwork. Contractors cut beams all the time and they pass inspections (inspectors are old contractors).
I've seen electrical contractors making holes in beams with a hammer instead of drilling through, and cracking the entire beam in the process.
I've seen a plumber cutting a beam in half because it was in the way of his sanitary line.
When a contractor does not have space, he does not care about coordination, he just takes his space (i.e cut beams and go through).
Architects rendering plans leaving it to the contractor to coordinate in criminal.
I've seen grand entrances with giant 30x30 return grilles right in front of you as you walk in the house, ugly as hell.

You don't need plans they say.

 

[JAE]

Houses in most states in the US have limits on square footage where a PE requirement kicks in. This usually gets enforced only in larger cities where smaller towns may not have anyone home in the city "building dept." to even care if there is a stamp on it or not.

Not sure about other countries but I'd be interested to hear.

 

[IRstuff]

I think y'all have "grass is greener" syndrome.

My wife is a doctor, who is considered to be underperforming if she sees fewer than 4 patients per hour, and will never make the big bucks if she doesn't crank through 6 patients per hour. Note that this requires a minimum of working through lunch plus at least one extra hour after hours to do the charts. Her boss puts in at least 3 hrs overtime a day doing charts.

What's so glam about that? She's on here feet 7 hours minimum a day; when she sits, she's doing the charts.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[cry22]

A nurse cannot sign a prescription though.

6 patients an hour? you hardly have time to ask the questions about the patient's pain in 10 minutes, let alone diagnose, I do not dare talk about treatment. That's a sausage factory man, not a doctor's office.

I do miss the point of your post IRstuff. I guess my foreign brain is getting confused again with the American language.

 

[IRstuff]

My point was that there are those that envy doctors for their "status" and "organizations" yet, clearly, their jobs are not what one would call "cush," particularly given that their raisson d'etre is to spend time with diseased people.

As a engineer, you get to sit down to do your work, maybe get a cold or flu because someone's sick, but you're not intentionally interacting with sick people, at 6 per hour.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[GregLocock]

So, how much worse off would doctors be without their union?



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[IRstuff]

I think it has zero bearing on the working conditions, since that's an economics question --> pt/hr = cash flow

It's already worse than what I have to do, and I don't even have a union ;-)

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[DonPE]

I think one of the reasons that MEP engineers get bypassed is because they become more and more unnecessary as the contractor steps in to fill the void. The owner with the cash isn't willing to either spend the money or the time up front for a completed set of plans. So the plan goes into the field where the contractor fills in the missing parts that the "stupid engineer" left out. (Never mind that the engineer was told to leave the drawing as it was). The contractor gets the headache, but is probably able to solve most of the issues without the need of an engineer based on his experience with past jobs. The engineer is left out of the loop when additional issues develop because the contractor is on-site and wants to finish the job as quick as possible so he can get paid.

I think most contractors would prefer a completed set of plans from which to bid, schedule, and build, but the owner handed him the print as it was to get the job rolling. Unless more construction lawsuits develop from incomplete plans resulting in delayed schedule or non-payment or not adhering to specifications, then things will continue with the engineer becoming more obsolete in construction.

 

[DonPhillips]

In Ohio, no design professional is required for 1-, 2-, and 3-family dwellings. And if a mechanical engineer seals structural drawings, how would I know unless the engineer told me. Even then, again in Ohio, he can legally do that if he is suitably qualified. For everything but 1-, 2-, and 3-family dwellings, most construction documents must bear the seal of a licensed design professional.

In Ohio, a mechanical contractor who holds out services to the public for anything except 1-, 2-, and 3-family residences must be licensed. A homeowner doing work on his own home does not require a license.

Permits are issued to a property owner and a lot of people are under the impression that contractors pull permits. Contractors are only acting as the owner's agent.

In Ohio, there is legislation being discussed to certify and license home inspectors, and the engineers are opposed to this without an engineer's exemption.

Cry22, I am not sure where you are at but everything you stated is not the case in Ohio. But I agree that the professional societies try to protect its memberships. The structural engineers are trying to prevent mechanical engineers, as an example, from sealing structural designs, but few states have licensing laws supporting this. Interior designer licensing is opposed by architects and engineers unless thier scope is severly limited, and civil engineers try to prevent landscape architect's from sealing development plans. And let us not forget how architect's seal a full (structural, civil, and MEP's) set of drawings with engineers opposing this while architect's have issue with engineers design buildings.

This is why I am a member of NSPE and ASCE and I support their involvement in the lawmaking process. I wrote my congressional representatives in 2003 when Ohio was trying to adopt a statewide residential building code. An urban county could literally have 25 jurisdictions with 25 different codes - many vastly different (from the 1987 National Building Code to the 2000 International Residential Code) with many amendments. Imagine being a production builder trying to design a house model with that many variables.

We have to stay involved and protect turf because the elected officials, right or wrong, have to listen to everyone to hopefully make the right decisions.

(exhausted after that all that time on the soapbox)


Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com