Pressure components sourced from China 2

[ktgottfr]

Hi Guys,
We're in a bit of a quandary over here regarding an aftercooler system we are ordering from China. The aftercooler is simple, just a radiator and a moisture separator. We are purchasing from the OEM and so we were assuming that this was a pre-engineered system.

However, we are having difficultly nailing down what the pressure ratings are on the aftercooler components. The OEM is saying that we are good to 450psi, but they have already done some suspect things that make us uncertain as to what they mean by 'good to 450psi'.

So here is the meat of my question - are Chinese companies expected to design their equipment to ASME code standards or equivalent? Or is it the wild west where anything goes? If they say that their radiator is good to 450psi, does this mean that the max working pressure is 450psi which would make their burst pressure more like 1500psi? Or would they possibly mean that the burst pressure is 450psi, which would make the working pressure more like 125psi?

I'm used to dealing only with North American and European suppliers where pressure ratings are well established and well documented. Should I not be ordering anything from this Chinese company unless they can give us reasonable documentation of the pressure ratings of the components? What would this documentation look like?

Thanks everyone! Any advice on this matter would be appreciated. I am starting to wonder if we are going to have to do our own destructive tests in order to remove liability from ourselves...

-Kristjan

 

[chicopee]

When it comes to serious equipment, I'll recommend US manufacturers. I stay away from Chinese and Asian suppliers as much as possible and for good reasons such as product liability issues.

 

[SnTMan]

Don't trust but verify...

Seriously, unless this is a known, trusted vendor (apparently not), you need a presence on site, start to finish, looking at everything.

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

You get what you pay for. In this example, probably less.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[ktgottfr]

Hi Guys,
Yeah, I'm thinking I agree with you on this one - this whole deal seems fishy.

One question that comes to mind is whether or not this aftercooler or the filter need to be registered as pressure vessels. I am getting the feeling that since these are Chinese manufacturers, the onus would fall on us to do the necessary calculations to verify that this equipment is compliant with the relevant ASME codes, even if registration was unnecessary.

And we can't do that unless we either destructively test some units, or the manufacturer gives us all the drawings for the equipment so we can calculate ourselves - and even with the drawings we probably would be unsure of materials...

Would something like a #150 water separator that is, say 5" in diameter and 12" long need to have an ASME stamp on it to be usable in Canada? Normally, these fittings come from Parker or other well established companies that you have no reason to doubt their spec sheets. But is there some marking on the fitting itself that gives an indication that it has been made to ASME standards? I am guessing no...

thanks again!

-Kristjan

 

[ktgottfr]

Basically, all we have that tells us that this equipment is rated to 250psi is a blurb on their website and the assurances of their sales people in emails. They have already changed out a component in the system to an inadequate one due to a language based misunderstanding, so its entirely possible that there are more misunderstandings involved.

So, if they tell us in emails and on a website that a fitting is ok and then it fails, would there be any way to hold them liable? It kind of feels like I would be liable as the engineer that approved the use of questionable equipment. Normally, I would think that a company catalog from an established NA or EU company would be somewhat legally binding and would protect a design engineer that used it to specify a component for a pressure system. But it feels like a webpage or salesperson email from a Chinese company with no prior interactions is not any kind of reasonable proof of compliance with pressure codes.

Do you think there is any kind of document that they could give me that would be satisfactory for pressure ratings? Or is it 100% my responsibility to vet their claims? I am guessing it is the latter. We might need to find a new source for this equipment.

-Kristjan

 

[SnTMan]

Well, there's another Canada of worms. You definitely need to review the jurisdictional requirements.

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[jmec87]

I think there are two main categories of concern here:
1. Safety and liability
2. Meeting the applicable pressure equipment legislation/regulations for your jurisdiction (also related to safety and reliability, but has its own specific requirements)

As far as point 2 goes, you need to check your jurisdiction's relevant pressure equipment laws, regulations, and exemptions to see if you are exempt. I don't think you would be exempt in Alberta unless your whole pressure system (aftercooler and all attached pressure piping and vessels) has a volume less than 42.5 litres, based on my understanding of the Alberta Safety Codes Act, Pressure Equipment Safety Regulation, and Pressure Equipment Exemption Order (these are all available online for free). If you are not exempt, then getting this design registered after-the-fact will likely be difficult and might be impossible.

If you want to source pressure equipment to bring into Alberta (and likely any Canadian jurisdiction), you should clarify the design registration requirements before placing the order.

 

[ktgottfr]

I'm quite certain that the system is small enough that it does not need registering. However, even unregistered systems need to comply with the local codes, which in my case is ASME B31.3 and/or BPVC section 8.

So, normally a purchased fitting comes with a pressure rating that you can trust. I am now wondering if it is even possible to get documentation from this Chinese company that would allow me to trust their claims for their equipment. I am guessing that just the fact that there is uncertainty would require me to do all the calculations for these fittings myself, which is not very practical.

I was hoping that someone else on this forum was familiar with this particular China sourcing issue and could shed some light on it. I've never felt the need to doubt a pressure rating on equipment before, so I was wondering how a company would be able to prove to an end user that their equipment was actually rated to a given pressure...

-Kristjan

 

[jmec87]

I was wondering how a company would be able to prove to an end user that their equipment was actually rated to a given pressure

I would normally expect a drawing, spec sheet, or catalog sheet with the maximum allowable pressure rating, as a minimum. If it's a special piece of equipment or high risk, or if it requires design registration, I would expect more.

Some end users may also have sourcing requirements that components must be from specific manufacturers, which can reduce some of these issues.

If you think the manufacturer is sketchy and there is a high likelihood they did something wrong so the part might fail, then you should either not use the part or get sufficient documentation to gain confidence in the manufacturer and equipment. What would be "sufficient" depends on your judgment. If you can't gain confidence that the part is safe to use, then don't use it.

 

[ktgottfr]

Thanks jmec87! Thats basically what I was looking for. To date I have been unable to get the Chinese company to give me anything resembling a proper spec sheet. They have only given me screenshots of spreadsheet tables, and those tables are not organised in any reasonable way.

I think I am going to continue to press them for better spec sheets, but I am now expecting that they will not be able to satisfy us that they are legit. We may need to simply order different parts from a proper supplier.

Thanks everyone for your input.

-Kristjan

 

[marty007]

Even in an unregistered system, every part should conform to Canadian laws on their own.

If this is a non-standard fitting, then it should be supplied as an h-fitting with a CRN number.

To obtain a CRN number for an h-fitting, the manufacturer would need to apply to the provincial boiler branch with a full set of calculations and drawings. Look into this, and you may very likely be opening a can of worms that will shut down this supplier.

 

[ktgottfr]

Hi Marty,
Thanks for that - this is also what I was looking for. So, the fitting I am concerned with is just a normal water separator fitting. It is around 12" long and 5" in diameter and has 1-1/2" NPT threads for connecting to the process piping and contains a coalescing filter material.

Is this what you mean by a non-standard fitting? I am familiar with category H fittings but I was unsure of what the requirements were for the manufacturer to sell them. You are saying that they need to have this H fitting registered with a CRN number for it to be used in Canada? That sounds about like what I was expecting. I will inquire in to this, and you are right - I'll bet this will be the last straw.

Thanks again!

-Kristjan

 

[jmec87]

Based on your description of the separator/filter and your statement that it will be connected to process piping, it likely needs a CRN number. Per CSA B51-14 Table 1: Categories of Fittings, Category E is for "Strainers, filters, separators, and steam traps", so it likely should be registered as a category E fitting. Category H is for fittings that don't fit into any of the other categories. Whether it is registered as category E or H isn't a big deal, as long as it is registered for the jurisdiction where it will be used.

 

[ktgottfr]

Thanks Jmec87,
Here is another question you guys might have some insight on. We are an OEM ourselves and this aftercooler system is meant to be a small portable unit that we are selling to retail distributors that will be used alongside other equipment we manufacture.

Do all piping systems in Canada - whether they are in a consumer items such as an industrial vehicle or even an industrial vaccuum cleaning system - need to have components that have CRN numbers to be sold in Canada? If so, are you aware of other similar requirements for other countries or regions such as the USA or Europe?

Or, are retail consumer items treated differently than industrial piping systems? My current understanding is that they are not, but if anyone has any experience with making piping systems for consumer systems like pressure washers or the like I could use their insight in the matter.

Thanks again!

-Kristjan

 

[oknow]

Side with SnTMan 100%....been there many times.

 

[jmec87]

Do all piping systems in Canada - whether they are in a consumer items such as an industrial vehicle or even an industrial vaccuum cleaning system - need to have components that have CRN numbers to be sold in Canada?
...
Or, are retail consumer items treated differently than industrial piping systems?

The need for a CRN is not related to whether it is a retail/consumer item or an industrial item. If it meets the definition of "pressure equipment" in the Safety Codes Act and is not specifically exempted in the act/regulation/exemption order, it requires registration.

In Alberta, pressure vessels subject to the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act are fully exempt, as well as air brake systems, and some other equipment. There are other partial exemptions, such as for a pressure plant not exceeding 42.5L, which might be applicable to a pressure washer. You need to read the relevant act/regulation/exemption order to see if your equipment is exempt.

Keep in mind that this is a provincial jurisdiction. Requirements differ between the provinces, so you need to check the requirements for all provinces where you want to sell your product.

 

[ktgottfr]

Thanks for that Jmec87! Very good to know.

Ok, so I am confident that the aftercooler system as a whole is exempt from registration requirements. However, does this mean that the individual fittings I use in this aftercooler assembly are also exempt? My reading of all this stuff seems to suggest that they are not, but that is just a guess at the moment. It would seem weird to me if something sold on its own would need a CRN number, but a system comprising that item would not require any CRN numbers.

This once again comes back around to my original problem - that I am looking for a degree of certainty on the pressure ratings of some components for my otherwise Exempt from registration pressure system. A CRN number or equivalent on this filter would satisfy me that this is not some counterfeit piece of junk filter - but is it required that it has one?

Thanks again!

-Kristjan

 

[chicopee]

Once upon a time, a fired pressure vessel made in France came to my state of MA. An equivalent manufacturers data sheet was provided to me for review. It was nearly identical to US manufacturers data sheet and all information met US Boiler power code I to the letter. Upon my acceptance after the review, there were no issues with MA boiler inspector. So as stated above the Asian manufacturer should provide you with all necessary paper work. If I remember correctly the NB sent a team of their reps to China back in the '70's to assist the Chinese in the construction of boilers and storage tanks and in retrospect this invitation by the NB should have been rejected for obvious reasons.

 

[DekDee]

kristjan,
Please do not take the following comments as negative criticisms - more as constructive criticisms.
I have spent the past 10 years on a variety of projects in a variety of Asian countries ( China, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam and the Phillipines) as Clients Representative performing vendor surveillance.
Who from your company (hopefully not you) decided to award this contract sight unseen with only promises from a website and unknown sales people ?
My previous project in China was for a mining company in Australia - we performed a pre-award Quality audit of 10 x vendors - selected the one we thought was the best and I stayed there for the next 18 months.
Even though I was present everyday we still had daily battles over what we wanted them to supply and what they "thought" they had to supply.
How can you possibly deal with an unknown vendor in a country still trying to shake off a previous poor reputation for quality via e-mails ?
You will be told what you want to hear - not what is actually happening.
You or someone from your Quality department needs to get over there ASAP and see what is actually going on.

Good luck,
Shane