My client has asked me to get some plans re-approved by the City so they can obtain a permit. The rule is that once plans are approved, construction must begin within one year or the approval signatures will expire and the plans must be re-submitted for approval. The plans were originally prepared and sealed by another engineer six years ago, but the client chooses not to use them this time for some reason. There are no design changes, but there will possibly be some minor changes required on the utility company's standard notes. Would it be a breach of ethics for me to make the required revisions on the original drawings and put my seal on them in addition to the original engineer's seal? The design is fine and meets all local requirements.
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Previously Stamped Plans 2
- Thread starter bank
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Is it only the drawings that are expired or is it also the permit application? If the permit application needs to be resubmitted, who will the engineer be for it? The engineer-of-record on the permit application must usually be the same as the engineer-of-record on the drawings.
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MiketheEngineer
Structural
Check w/ your state board. Some require a complete re-engineering with your calcs. Some don't. Some require that you at least try to get permission from the original engineer.
Regardless - if you put your seal on it - you are now responsible. While I agree it would be a waste of time to redraw everything - I would completely re-check the design and document my calcs and charge accordingly.
And in six years - we have been through at least two revisions of the model building codes - so I must think there should be some rather major changes - specifically wind and seismic come to mind and changes in ASCE, NDS, ACI, AISC, NEC, etc., etc.
Good Luck
Regardless - if you put your seal on it - you are now responsible. While I agree it would be a waste of time to redraw everything - I would completely re-check the design and document my calcs and charge accordingly.
And in six years - we have been through at least two revisions of the model building codes - so I must think there should be some rather major changes - specifically wind and seismic come to mind and changes in ASCE, NDS, ACI, AISC, NEC, etc., etc.
Good Luck
MiketheEngineer is absolutely correct.
You say: [blue]The design is fine and meets all local requirements. [/blue].
How do you know this is true? Just reviewing and gut feeling? As an engineer you have a duty to protect the public welfare and safety. The original engineer may have made a critical mistake somewhere.
Check it thoroughly...then seal.
You say: [blue]The design is fine and meets all local requirements. [/blue].
How do you know this is true? Just reviewing and gut feeling? As an engineer you have a duty to protect the public welfare and safety. The original engineer may have made a critical mistake somewhere.
Check it thoroughly...then seal.
)
civilperson
Structural
PE's do not make mistakes, they make revisions and send the bill to the client!
DonPhillips
Structural
I would redraft the drawings and approach the design as if I was new to the project before sealing to ensure there were no problems - and call the other engineer to let him know what happened to his drwaings. There may be a story there.
Don Phillips
Don Phillips
msquared48
Structural
Two other thought here...
1. In addition to the current code issue, even though the plans were stamped six years ago, some states have an expiration date on the stamp which may render his stamp on the drawings and any calculations invalid anyway. It may have to be removed. If so, the original engineer should be notified as a courtesy.
2. There is a reason why he does not want to return to the original enginer. I would suggest calling the other engineer. You might get an earful that would help you deal with the problem from an "enlightened" perspective. Then again, he could be retired. Hey, what do I know?![[noevil]](/data/assets/smilies/noevil.gif "[noevil] [noevil]")
Call him!
Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
1. In addition to the current code issue, even though the plans were stamped six years ago, some states have an expiration date on the stamp which may render his stamp on the drawings and any calculations invalid anyway. It may have to be removed. If so, the original engineer should be notified as a courtesy.
2. There is a reason why he does not want to return to the original enginer. I would suggest calling the other engineer. You might get an earful that would help you deal with the problem from an "enlightened" perspective. Then again, he could be retired. Hey, what do I know?
Call him!Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
DonPhillips
Structural
On a related note, I recently reviewed a change of occupancy and minor alteration where a restaurant owner was taking over an existing restaurant, replacing some equipment, opening a wall, building a new room, but otherwise, very small project. The owner had literally recycled the architect's furniture plan drawing, seal and all (no signature, since in Ohio, architects "wet-seal" the cover sheet, in other words, emboss their signature, and the remaining sheets only bear the seal).
I called the architect, explained the scope of work, and he did not have any real concerns but appreciated my call. He had done the original project for a friend and the restaurant did not survive a year. He was glad to hear someone could take over and help the friend out.
I then called the applicant and he confirmed he marked up the drawing so I referenced in the plan approval letter that the applicant and not the architect was the author of the revision.
The point is - there is usually a story in there somewhere.
Don Phillips
I called the architect, explained the scope of work, and he did not have any real concerns but appreciated my call. He had done the original project for a friend and the restaurant did not survive a year. He was glad to hear someone could take over and help the friend out.
I then called the applicant and he confirmed he marked up the drawing so I referenced in the plan approval letter that the applicant and not the architect was the author of the revision.
The point is - there is usually a story in there somewhere.
Don Phillips
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Above and beyond checking your state's PE laws about this, you should also consider the intellectual property issue with what you are being directed to do by your client.
Namely, your client hired the professional services of the former PE; the 6 year old stamped drawings are only instruments of that professional service. Your client probably does not "own" these drawings unless it was specifically stipulated in the contractual relationship between him and the former engineer.
There is no reason to be shy; point blank ask your client why he is not choosing to contact the former engineer. You have a right to know what has happened if you are being asked to step in the middle of this.
Out of professional respect, I would also consider contacting the former engineerand let him know what's (potentially) going on with his plans. You might hear a completely different tale than what the owner said!
Namely, your client hired the professional services of the former PE; the 6 year old stamped drawings are only instruments of that professional service. Your client probably does not "own" these drawings unless it was specifically stipulated in the contractual relationship between him and the former engineer.
There is no reason to be shy; point blank ask your client why he is not choosing to contact the former engineer. You have a right to know what has happened if you are being asked to step in the middle of this.
Out of professional respect, I would also consider contacting the former engineerand let him know what's (potentially) going on with his plans. You might hear a completely different tale than what the owner said!
In most states this would be a quick way to lose your license. If I was the other Engineer and found out what you did I would do report you to the State Board. I would also expect the Code reviewer at the City to do the same thing.
I really suggest that you read your state statues and pick up an ethics book.
I really suggest that you read your state statues and pick up an ethics book.
DonPhillips
Structural
Copyrighting of the "instruments of service" should be specified in your contract. I would not want to leave it to he intrepretation of a court.
Don Phillips
Don Phillips
Interesting article here:
See "Failure to Communicate" on Page 4.
See "Failure to Communicate" on Page 4.
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