Professional Engineering License needed for all engineering design work? 1

[eatfood]

Trying to understand the professional engineering field a little better. There are many fields of engineering. There are many countries with different regional and federal level rules. There are international issues also.

In general, for developed and western countries, is a professional engineering license needed by either the designer/employee or a consultant to 'sign off' of the design. Do all engineering work need to be 'signed off?' every step of the way?

I understand certain fields you definately have to. For example, infrastructure projects like construction of a building, high power electrical distribution systems etc - where public safety exposure is heavy. Or high pressure containers often need to be certified, such as air compressors you can get at home depot etc. But do _all_ design related work need to be certified by an engineer?

Lets speak from the North American and European perspective?

So an entrepreneur who comes up with a certain design or concept, is he not able to 'sign off' by himself provided he has not gotten a professional license yet? Is he not allowed to just go straight to selling his product if it has not been reviewed by an engineer?

What if the field is advanced and there are hardly any more experts in the field than said inventor?

What about international trade. If someone sells something overseas, do they need to consult a local engineer before they sell the product?

 

[eatfood]

What about carpentry? What carpenters do often involves design/engineering work too. Do carpenters routinely have structural engineers sign off on their designs before its a go-ahead for sales? *I know they dont do this.

What about artists? Artists can sell statues etc that are the product of 'design' and manufacturing involved. Does an engineer need to sign off on those before they get sold to the highest art bidder? *a worst case view is that maybe the statue can pose legitimate dangers to the public, for example, protruding features made of a brittle material can fail abruptly if it is not internally reinforced say with steel wires. Yet I dont think artists ever have their sculptures reviewed by engineers before its sold.

So what fields really do require it in general? Or is it merely a case of 'if shy hits the fan' then you'd want it to be signed off unless the field is normally under heavy active regulation like the civil construction field then you have all work signed off by default as a normal process (like breathing)?

 

[KENAT]

Here's your starter for 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[msquared48]

FYI, I have designed a sculpture where an engineering stamp (license implied) was needed. I think that is pretty project and jursdiction specific though. Normally, I would not expect it to be the case.

As for industries other than what you mentioned, I know a lot of degreed engineers who are not licensed, and do not have to be to practice engineering. They are in governmental and industrial fields. frequently within large companies such as Boeing, and the petrochemical industry. Projects performed on government or tribal lands frequently do not have to use licensed engineers. Large companies have their own internal engineers to perform engineering designs within their own plants - frequently modifications or small additions. Been there, done that working with a local electrical utility 40 years ago.

I can't say that I agree with this, but that subject has been discussed many times here.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[JedClampett]

For artists, it's a gray area, but if it's large enough to fall down and kill someone, an engineer should support it and make sure any protuding items are reinforced. Would you want to be under that statue of Venus de Milo when her rock arms fell off? That would smart a bit.
As for carpenters, they're supposed to build to certain prescriptive rules, that when followed to the letter, don't need an engineers stamp. These are in the building code. But if you don't follow them, an engineer needs to sign off on it.
In general, if you're providing an engineered product, an engineer must seal it. If you call it engineered, you need to seal it. Coffee Cup? No. Starbucks Building? Yes. It's like pornography, I can't describe it precisely, but I know it when I see it. So I need to see it.
But there are exceptions to every rule. Why do utility engineers not have to seal their internal designs? Or software engineers? And every state has a different spin on what needs to be sealed and what is a violation of the regulations.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

IF working with the "Public" and that can be hard to define - then yes. But is an F-15 or 787 Dreamliner for the "public" I would think so - but it's not done. It falls under "manufacturing" - usually exempt at least in the US.

There seems to exemptions to every rule??

 

[cvg]

to be fair, both F15's aand 787's go through extensive QC and safety testing before the public ever sees them, and presumably the FAA regulates aircraft safety.

 

[IRstuff]

In most US states, there are industrial exemptions from the PE licensing, i.e., if you are building widgets, you don't need a license to design them, and there is no need to "seal" the drawings.

Additionally, there are exemptions, at least in California, for anything one does on ones' own property, although it does need to permitted and inspected.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[kylesito]

I am curious what you are getting at, eatfood. If I had to guess, I would take a stab that you have an idea you think could be marketable and you would like to see it put into industry?

Look at this situation another way...do you really need a medical degree and certification to practice medicine? I mean, I have had broken arms, ankles, and numerous dislocated joints which I have been treated for and countless scrapes, cuts, and bruises I have treated myself. Wouldn't that qualify me to practice medicine?

Hopefully the answer is a reasounding NO! In my mind, its similar to engineering sign off. Sure, many people have experience sculpting or doing carpentry...but that experience wouldn't doesn't necessarily qualify them to design or build a structure which must support the public safely. I can throw a sling on my own arm based on my experience but that doesn't mean I need to be handing slings out to the public when I think it's appropriate. The public wouldn't feel comfortable accepting medical care from someone with only their own life experience as a guide and shouldn't feel right having things which affect their daily lives designed by a non-engineer.

If I guessed correctly, and you have something in mind beyond a general curiousity, I would strongly recommend you take your idea to an engineer and have them review it. If nothing else, it couldn't hurt!

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[moltenmetal]

The answer varies by region in the world much less by country.

Some locales have no professional licensure regime for engineers. Some have limited licensure regimes with general exemptions for industry, such that only those providing services directly to the general public need a license. Some have a generalized requirement for licensure with very few exemptions or exceptions, but which is so poorly enforced that it only functions as a license when a piece of 3rd party legislation relies upon it (i.e. a regulation requires a professional engineer's stamp on a document submitted to a government body), or after a failure leads to a complaint.

Here in Canada, a license to practice professional engineering gives you responsibilities not conferred on non-licensed people, without granting you a truly effective right to either title or practice. Since we're a self-regulated profession, we have nobody but ourselves to blame for this sorry state. Despite a robust Act which no longer exempts virtually anyone, in any practical sense, unless you work in an area of practice covered by demand-side legislation (i.e. such as civil/structural engineering for building construction), a P.Eng. license is of less practical use than a driver's license, much less a gasfitter's ticket. In fact, to most who hold it, a P.Eng. license is either a relatively cheap means to add some letters to the end of your name, or to demonstrate to employers that you've met the academic and experience requirements to work as an engineer, i.e. it acts as a credential which limits the opportunity of the holder to commit a fraud against potential employers by exaggerating their qualifications. Worth something? Perhaps, but it is hardly what most people would consider to be a license.

As to the comment about carpenters, the same could apply to pipefitters, millwrights, electricians etc. Codes and standards were written to acknowledge that people in the trades do (limited) design work in the course of their practice. Codes and standards were written such that the work could be done competently within very specific limits, and such that they would know what minimum standards of fabrication and testing are required, so that they would not routinely injure people or destroy property in the process of their work. Unfortunately they are now used often to prevent engineers from exercising engineering judgment when the rules in the codes do not apply to the situation at hand.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Know all about Boeing - ha a buddy that worked on the left landing gear of the F-15 for like 15 years. I asked - who did the right gear?? He asaid another team. My question - just turn it around!!

Very HIGH QA/QC - but no PE

 

[jgailla]

In general in the U.S. (and the rest of N. America and Europe), if you're designing targets, you need a license. If you're designing bombs, you don't.

 

[spongebob007]

Nearly all U.S. states recognize what is called the industrial exemption. Since licensing requirements are governed by the individual states, a widget design engineer would have to be licensed in every single state if he wanted to sell his widgets nationwide. That scenario would esentially kill interstate commerce. So rather than sort out this complicated mess, the powers that be decided that engineers who worked in a manufacturing environment were exempt from professional licensing requirements. So what that boils down to is that engineers working in manufacturing don't need to be licensed and their work doesn't need to be signed off by licensed engineers. I do believe that a couple of US states don't recognize the industrial exemption.

Where it gets a little sticky is with consulting work. Basically a manufacturing company doesn't sell engineering, they sell widgets that are designed by engineers. From how I interpret the law, if you sell engineering services to a manufacturing company you legally need to be licensed in order to call yourself an engineer. Basically if I were to quit my job tomorrow and sell my services to my employer as an independent contractor I would be in violation of the law beacause I am not a PE. How likely are you to get caught? I would say probably not likely unless something goes wrong.

 

[IRstuff]

"Where it gets a little sticky is with consulting work."

Not always. In California, the industrial exemption umbrellas consultants and contract engineers.

TTFN
faq731-376