"Costing the earth".... wind turbines....

[jmw]

The BBC radio 4 series of programs is still stimulating and this week the focus was on wind power.
Read the blurb

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/costingtheearth.shtml

and listen to the program (click the link on the column to the left of the text).
Pay attention to the claim about Britain being "the windiest place in Europe" and follow up here:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/winds/global_winds.html

Another source/preamble is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6969865.stm

but note also this article on the German experince:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,500902,00.html

some of which seems to contradict the London Investors rosy glow about the 20year proftiable future pof these things.

I did have one concern, and excuse me if I don't really understand these things, but if these things have a huge subsidy from the government because they are uneconomical, how can some farmer expect to make £75,000 per year per turbine (2.3MW typical land based). To put that in context, how much does the average farmer make from power pylons and telegraph poles marching across his land? I bet it is nowhere near £75,000 per pylon or per pole....then again, he doesn't own the pylons but then why should he need to own the wind turbines?

Just for the context, see also "Not cheap, not green"

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-280.html

There are contrary views but my bookmarks are somewhat out of date (I hate that) and it surprises me that the Cato report is still there but the Earthdog Renewable isn't and the Wind-Power web site now says I am not authorised to access it.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SnTMan]

Great pics at this link:

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,24219,00.html

And a quote that says it all... "The demand for wind turbines in Germany and the world continues to grow. Indeed, the country's capacity for wind power -- if only the wind would blow all the time -- is almost that of nuclear power in Germany."

If Only.

Regards,

Mike

 

[minerk]

"if only the wind would blow all the time..." sounds perfect for Wyoming!

 

[jmw]

Why aren't I surprised:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/09/03/cngreen103.xml

Green tax 'all stick and little carrot'

Green taxes reap the Government more than 50 times the sum it hands back in tax breaks for environmental initiatives, new research reveals.

Anyone any data on other countries? I suspect Hasen arrived at his enormous costs without allowing for a government bonanza...so how much more expensive will it be than Hansen projected?
PS
FEGs are soon to be tested in the US, apparently. These will be 20MW turbines flying at around 15000feet with 80% efficiency.
Of course, some will crash, admit the developers, but they will be in low population density areas. They estimate 43 farms of 600 each to provide the US energy needs. Now I'd hesitate to estimate the separation between the morroing points because they may be flying in opposed directions, depending on the air stream they are each in. ANyway, the developers suggest only one four hundredth of US air space would need to be restricted but while that doesn't sound much the way they say it, given the size of the US this equates to a sizeable chunk of real estate and air space above it.

http://news.com.com/2300-1008_3-6147209-7.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

and see image 7 for the helicopter style referred to in this article:

http://www.skywindpower.com/ww/index.htm

or this:

http://environment.newscientist.com...g-windmills-could-harness-the-jet-stream.html

and so on.
Feasible? One critic suggests that the problem could be with the proposal to use an aluminium tether to both tether the device and carry the power.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SnTMan]

jmw, for a discussion of the main problem, see this:

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/2006 February.htm#enginasters

Regards,

Mike

 

[jmw]

Yes, the Number watch site mainly seems to address the problem of insulation breakdown and the weight of the cable.

Another issue raised is the stability of the FEGs.
The question of these things falling out of the sky seems a minor one if one were to have these as an offshore wind farm with both sea and air exclusion zones and of all the wind power solutions, if we must have them, this seems to me to be the least bad solution.

Of course, I have a problem. I do not have the knowledge or skills to know the true extent of the problems of the conductor (115kg/km and at 4,6km height presumably somehwer in the 600-650kg weight range (at 10mm diameter as exampled in the IEEE paper) i.e. can it work as a power conductor? How serious are the insulation problems and the integrity of the conductor?

What about the question of the stability of the FEG as an autogyro style device? Opposed rotors would seem to help provide a relatively stable device.

It seems to me that if either of these problems were resolvable and if the costs could be favourable that this could work and be a better solution that pylon based turbines whether on land or offshore.

So, are these insurmountable problems?
Are there other problems?
Will it prove too costly?

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com