"Never spend more than 5-7 years in any job" 21

[lookintomyeyes]

I work for a large, publicly owned company. At a recent event for "young professionals", a speaker recommended that we "never spend mroe than 5-7 years in any job". The speaker was once an engineer, but has now moved "up" in the company through design, project management, etc to a full time management position.

Do you agree with his recommendation?
In our company, the average employee, for whatever reason, only spends 2-3 years in each position they take. From what I've seen, this has been leaving several engineering departments without experienced, knowledgeable staff. Additionally, there is the "expectation" that all engineers will move into management positions. The company has just created "engineering expert" positions to entice people to stay in design-type engineering roles, but the management stream still appears to be winning. Add to that the flux of retirees exiting the company, and it's easy to see why more and more work is going to consultants. (Personally I get nervous when I see someone outside the company design somethign, while we just maintain it, but thats another discussion.)

I'll admit that I'm young and therefore perhaps naive/foolish, but I look forward to spending as many years as it takes to become an expert in my field. If I get bored I may move, but I do not wish to move just to sample various areas of engineering. I've also had my taste of management and find it too stressful for my liking. There will be others for whom it is a perfect fit, but for others...I think they are being pushed into a role because of said "get out after 5-7 years!" rule.


Comments? Is anyone else (company-wise or personally) experiencing the same thing?

(Lastly, please forgive me if this has been posted/discussed before)

 

[swertel]

As a young engineering, it is necessary to move around a bit more often than most would like.

1) It allows for a broader experience base to see how other companies operate and to keep yourself educated on the vast disciplines that are "engineering".

2) You can get more of a raise by changing companies than you can with an annual cost-of-living increase. If you really want to be able to repay all those high-priced student loans, you have to move around to get your salary up.

I'm now in my low 30s. I spent 2.5 years at my first company out of school, 1 year at my second (was a mistake to take that job, but I stuck it out for 366 days), 6 years at my third. I was actually hoping for 10 years at the third one, but stress and politics motivated me to move. I'm now in my 4th position and the experiences I learned from each company before has put me into a great position. The only thing I lack is the ability to become an "expert" at anything because right when I'm starting to feel like I know quite a bit about the specifics of the field, I leave. I am a generalist and do very well at looking at the big picture - one of my forte's. Hopefully I'll be at this company for over 10 years and maintain the big picture and become an expert in this niche field.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[Twoballcane]

I agree with the person. Well first being young in the Engineering field, it is a good idea to move around a bit to see what you like to do. Changing jobs every 3 to 4 years will give you enough time to see if you like the work or not. Second, after 5 years in the same company / job, your work becomes repetitive. It is good to move around to keep your self refreshed on new technologies and methodologies of solving problems. Even if you do the same job in a different company, you will still learn new tricks.

For me I jumped 3 times 5- 6 years each. Oh also, every time you jump your salary goes up at lease 20% or more. Due to the dot come era and the culture of companies that downsizing at a drop of the market price, it created a mentality of “watch out for your self”. Loyalty has become a thing of the past.

So I guess the point is always look forward to jobs that will help you rise in your career, because the company will not do that for you.


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[SomptingGuy]

A personal viewpoint and history...

Age 22. About to be consumed by huge multi-national company and shoved into a niche until retirement (is how it felt). Hated the idea of a life-long project.

Moved to a consulting company, mainly because of the huge diversity of work and ideas. Loved it for a while. Formed my own niche. Started to hate it, particularly turning the same old wheel for yet another customer - might as well be a checkout guy at a supermarket. Wanted something more long-term; something with my name on it and smell throughout it.

Age 30 (ish) Moved into the field I'm now in. Long-term development (mine is software, but that's by the by).

The 5-7 year rule applied to me in the early stage of my career. Switching every 5-7 years seems like a lot of work and upheaval. But that's just me.

 

[Zogzog]

Mid (OK late) 30's - 5th company (3-7 dpending on how you view it), worker for big corps and small eng firms, learned a lot from all companies on what works and what does not. Just started what I hope to be my last company now that i have seen much and know what I want out of my career.

Remmember changing jobs does not necessarily mean changing companies but I believe a smart young engineer should make a few moves within his/her field to learn what you want to do and have a better understanding of the whole field. Do it while you are young, it gets harder later in life with more responsibilities (Mortage, wife, ex-wife, kids, etc..)

 

[lookintomyeyes]

Hi All, thanks for the responses so far. As always, they are somethign to think about

Just to add a bit more personal info to my side of the coin:
- I've had several summer jobs prior to graduating engineering. This allowed me to gain some experience in instrumentation, hvac, water and wastewater treatment, mechanical aspects of generatign stations. Of course none of this was detailed experience, but provided a good intro to mechanical engineering.
- Upon graduating, I was hired by a company that does 6-months rotations in various engineering sections in teh company. As such, I've gained experience and been able to see/design aspects of power generation, mechanical systems, gas pipelines, etc and been involved in project management, contract negotiations, and other activities.
None of those activities made me an expert, but I've now got a boatload of books to learn/review from, soem design experience, and more than anything, a strong desire to "settle down and actually learn more than just a little bit of everything!"

 

[ctopher]

I agree for the young out of college. Spend at least a couple years and a few jobs before settling down for a career job.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 1.1
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)
ctopher's blog

 

[csd72]

lookintomyeyes,

This is a very good point that I have been trying to make for several years.

If the pinnacle of ones career as an engineer is management, then why did we not just do a management degree and skip the poor pay in the interum!

There is too little respect for engineering expertise.

 

[KENAT]

I don't know, if you're happy where you are (considering all factors), why move?\

The grass isn't greener.

However obviously if you want to experience something different etc then go for it.

I did about 5 at my first place, then moved to the states and have been here over 2.

Wish I was still at my first place some days

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[cksh]

I am 34 and on my 7th job since 94. I rarely last more than two years before I get bored or realize that doing what I love means a smaller paycheck or having to work with idiots One of these days I will find that perfect job.

My current job was taken mostly to improve my overall "sellability" (and money!).

Lots of our engineers have been here over 20 years. I feel bad for them as they basically do what they are told for fear of losing their pensions. They work horrible hours and seem to take a lot of flak. Plus they have been designing the same thing most of their careers. This is good and bad. Makes you quite the expert in your field but it can really limit what company they can work for if they are let go or move on.

I like to diversify Except for my current job, I have never worked for a competitor or designed products even remotely similar to another job I have had. I even have some architectural experience from long ago

I feel as though I am getting stuck on a career path I do not like. Designing the same thing for 20 years is not for me. I will most likely end up in management if I don't find a product I enjoy working on.

 

[zdas04]

I'm 54. I've gotten W-2's from three entities in my life (one summer job in High School, the US Navy for one hitch, and a Major Oil Company for 23 years). I found that there were real benefits to looking internally when the job got stale and I had a very satisfying career--no one needed to feel sorry for me, and I damn sure didn't "spend 20 years designing the same thing".

I had a bunch of head-hunter offers over the years, but it was always just different faces on the same politics and the money was never enough better to be compelling.

I saw hundreds of engineers on the 2-5 year rotation over the years and many were people we were really happy to see leave, some we were sorry to see arrive. There were a few that we were happy to see arrive and sad to see leave. The vast majority were interchangeable slugs that never distinguished themselves in any positive way--most acted like they were "just passing through" and didn't want to get invested. These morons were a waste of air and rarely contributed anything important.

When kids ask me the question the OP asked I say "start every job with the attitude that you are going to stay there for the rest of your life". If it works out that you stay, then your early work is a lifelong credit to your future. If if doesn't work out, then at least you've learned everything that you could and contributed to the company the most that you were able.

Starting a job with the attitude that "you'll only be there 5-7 years" never lets you stop being a "temp" in your own mind and if you should happen to stay for 8 years then you see yourself as a failure.

David

 

[whyun]

I've never started a new job thinking I am leaving after so many years. I've also never started a new job thinking I will stay until I retire.

Job is something most of us need to keep our families fed, sheltered and sometimes to keep us entertained. I try not to get consumed in my career at the expense of friends and family.

For young engineers, I feel that 5 to 7 years at one job is too long. I would recommend 2 or 3 years and job shop until they find a company that fits their needs.

 

[swertel]

Age plays a huge role. David, I'm going to pick on you, sorry.

At age 32, I'm from the generation where all I have experienced from companies is being a number. Some companies, usually smaller ones, treat the numbers more like people. But, when push comes to shove, the numbers win and the people are let go. I continually have to watch out for my best interests and I can do that by being marketable. I stayed at my last employer for 6 years and head hunters were telling me that it was too long and I will be a hard sell because I was accustomed to the extra benefits that get earned with tenure. In other words, will I be expecting those as part of the negotiation with a new job or am I willing to go back to only 2 weeks vacation and earn my 401k.

At age 54, you are from the generation where companies were loyal to the employees and their employees were loyal back. Being a "company man" was a compliment, not an insult like it is for my generation who wants to get in, work hard, and go home when the whistle blows to things of "real" priority. My generation (broad definition, if you would so oblige) has no loyalty to a company because they have no loyalty to us (big generalization, but sadly it gets applied to everyone).

To validate my claims as it applies to the general engineering population, look at the threads above me. Those that hinted at their age show:
under 30 = move around and protect yourself while finding what you love.
over 50 = sit tight and find the existential pleasures in the daily grind.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[737eng]

I am in my mid thirties and have done my share of changing jobs (approx every 2-3 yrs) and all resulted in a much larger salary and some very interesting and rewarding projects. I know for a fact that I am making much more due to the changing of companies than I would be if I stayed at my first company. However, there are down sides to swithching companies.
1) If that company had a retirement, you most likely will not be vested or will not meet all the requirments to get much if any of the retirement. My jobs all had 401Ks and I was vested when I left, so that was not really an issue.

2) Vacation time - At one job I just hit the five year mark and obtained three weeks vacation when I decided to move to another company. At the other company I had to start all over with just one week, after making it to the two week threshold I moved on to the next company and the cycle continues. If I would have stayed at the first company, I would now have 4 weeks vacation. At the time the salary outweighed the loss of vacation, but now with 2 kids and a stay at home wife, it would be nice to be able to take the time off and spend more time with them.

3) Moving - If you are changing cities in addition to jobs, it gets tougher to uproot families as you get older.

Changing jobs within the same company does not have these two draw backs and has many benefits as described in other postings. Just things to consider, however, sometimes the increase in salary may just outweigh losing a weeks vacation.

 

[Twoballcane]

A star for you swertel. I agree with you that depending on the demagraphics of generations, the "Xers" are more independent and the "Boomers" are more loyal. However, switching jobs is a tricky thing for your carrer. How do you find better jobs, but not look like a job hopper? You have to find real good reasons why your leaving and why you are going into another company to explain to future employers.


Now for kids graduating today I think are called Mulliniums. They are sterotyped as kids that are realy looking for meaning with what they are doing instead of salary. Work/life balance instead of 9 to 5. And also, if they don't get it, they'll leave and find another company who will. This generation has also coined the phrase quater life crisess and boomerang kids.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[csd72]

I have had only one job for more than 2 years, most have been in the 1.5yr range. I have never had a big issue with people thinking I hop around too much.

There is no such thing as a job for life.

Sometimes the only way you can get what you are worth is by switching.

 

[stanweld]

swertel,
"At age 54 you are from the generation where companies were loyal to the emplyees..." Try telling that to the tens of thousands of Engineers in the aerospace and defense industries who lost their jobs in the early 1970's and again in the early 90's or the thousands of Engineers who lost their jobs in the Energy related industries in the 1980s or the tens of thousands of Engineers who lost their jobs as manufacturing left the USA during the past two to three decades.

zdas04 was lucky to land in a position with a company that provided an interesting and fulfilling career. I know a number of similar engineers who found similar fulfillment with a single company; more power to them and those like them.

However, most Engineers that I have met have moved from job to job like I have. From 1969 through 1995, I worked for seven different companies in four different arenas and in three different foreign countries as well as the US. I would not trade my experiences. I left a company for another primarily to gain additional experience in my profession and in some cases to experience new cultures both corporate and social.

I canonly recommend that if one is stagnating in his or her current position, don't be afraid to seek other employment. Similrly, if one intuits that his/her position or company is in jeapardy, seek employment elsewhere soon.

 

[KENAT]

Funny, so you shouldn't stay at an employer for more than 5-7 years.

I've also been told that staying less than 4-5 years (early in your career) makes you look like a job hoppper and that that's a bad thing.

So ideally you leave companies at spot on 5 years?

Different people have different ideas, what one likes another hates. I think there's a lot more to be concerned about than planning which day you need to jump ship.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[lookintomyeyes]

Twoballcane I will now have to admit that I am one of those "Mulleniums". I love engineering, and definitely am looking for a career i enjoy moreso than just to make loads of money. I also want that balance between work and life, and more to the life side, I must admit. My experience is that the push for moving every 5-7 years appears to be comeing from the midthirties-late forties age group. Such "life lesson" talks are usually accompanied by the old "you'll make more money" and "you'll 'get ahead' lines, and often the words are spoken by either manager-types or aspiring managers.

Perhaps my concern stems from the lack of engineers standing and saying, "I'm proud to have become an expert in my field"?

 

[zdas04]

A company cannot be loyal. Loyalty is a human attribute. When I worked for big oil, I had supervisors that I would (figuratively) kill for. I also had supervisors that I would have loved to (literally) kill. The good ones were loyal and made very sure that they were fair, even when they had to do things that sucked.

215 other engineers started at Amoco the same day I did. At 10 years, an HR type looked at the records and 5 of us were still with company. That was 1990, many had left in the 1986 purges, but most were already gone by then. Job hopping is far from a new Gen X or Mullenimum (what a stupid term) concept.

I stayed with the same company because when I ran the numbers, staying worked better for me than leaving. Remember the old quote "If you don't control your career, no one will", but also remember that controlling your career doesn't mean getting on some revolving-door bandwagon. When other opportunities arise, you need to do a rational (not emotional) evaluation of both options and develop a weighting system that puts appropriate weight to each facet of both. When I did that objectively I found that, for me, the greener grass on the other side of the fence was the result of light polarization and I stayed where I was.

David