"Practice" of Engineering 3

[msquared48]

So, the first question is, according to engineering ethics and the laws of the respective state boards, what specific actions by an individual would constitute "the practice of engineering"?

The second question is, would those same actions constituting "the practice of engineering, necessarily require state licensing to legally and ethically perform such actions? If not, then under what circumstances?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[IRstuff]

In California, calling yourself a structural engineer or being in responsible charge of structural engineering work is "practicing" structural engineering.

In California, there are a variety of exemptions, too many to list here.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[PSE]

The rules for Michigan.

http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/bcsc/forms/arch/dblaw.pdf

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(bomucs5510og1a55nlkbgl55))/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-299-1980-20.pdf

Not being a PE, I have not thoroughly read through them (and don't really intend to) . I never offered my services to the public and now as a Project Manager, am more removed from engineering practice. Of course with the state of the Michigan economy , quite a few engineers might end up no longer practicing under industrial exemptions or otherwise.

Regards,

 

[diarmud]

Directly from NYS Licensing Board:

"§7201. Definition of practice of engineering.
The practice of the profession of engineering is defined as performing professional service such as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design or supervision of construction or operation in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works, or projects wherein the safeguarding of life, health and property is concerned, when such service or work requires the application of engineering principles and data.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

§7202. Practice of engineering and use of title "professional engineer".
Only a person licensed or otherwise authorized under this article shall practice engineering or use the title "professional engineer".

This is for New York State.

Regards,
Dermott

 

[JLSeagull]

You can download the Texas Engineering Practices Act at

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us.

§ 1001.003. Practice of Engineering
(a) In this section:
(1) “Design coordination” includes the review and coordination of technical submissions prepared by others, including the work of other professionals working with or under the direction of an engineer with professional regard for the ability of each professional involved in a multidisciplinary effort.
(2) “Engineering survey” includes any survey activity required to support the sound conception, planning, design, construction, maintenance, or operation of an engineered project. The term does not include the surveying of real property or other activity regulated under Chapter 1071.
(b) In this chapter, “practice of engineering” means the performance of or an offer or attempt to perform any public or private service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience in applying special knowledge or judgment of the mathematical, physical, or engineering sciences to that service or creative work.
(c) The practice of engineering includes:
(1) consultation, investigation, evaluation, analysis, planning, engineering for program management, providing an expert engineering opinion or testimony, engineering for testing or evaluating materials for construction or other engineering use, and mapping;
(2) design, conceptual design, or conceptual design coordination of engineering works or systems;
(3) development or optimization of plans and specifications for engineering works or systems;
(4) planning the use or alteration of land or water or the design or analysis of works or systems for the use or alteration of land or water;
(5) responsible charge of engineering teaching or the teaching of engineering;
(6) performing an engineering survey or study;
(7) engineering for construction, alteration, or repair of real property;
(8) engineering for preparation of an operating or maintenance manual;
(9) engineering for review of the construction or installation of engineered works to monitor compliance with drawings or specifications;
(10) a service, design, analysis, or other work performed for a public or private entity in connection with a utility, structure, building, machine, equipment, process, system, work, project, or industrial or consumer product or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, electronic, chemical, hydraulic, pneumatic, geotechnical, or thermal nature; or
(11) providing an engineering opinion or analysis related to a certificate of merit under Chapter 150, Civil Practice and Remedies Code; or
(12) any other professional service necessary for the planning, progress, or completion of an engineering service.

 

[RARWOOD]

What constitutes the practice of engineering varies from state to state. In most states the practice of engineering require state licensing, after all that is the reason states define what it means to practice engineering.

There are some common elements in most state registration laws. In most cases if you offer engineering services you must be registered. Some people try to skirt the law by offering design services. In a state that exempts single family residential construction from the state registration laws you might be able to offer design service for single family homes. If you are not registered or working under the direct supervision of a registered engineer, you can't offer to perform work that the state requires to be performed by a registered engineer, no matter what you want to call your efforts.

A second item is whether or not you charge a fee. In some states there is a lot you can do if you are not charging
for your services.

The purpose of state registration laws is to protect the public where life safety is an issue. In some states you might be able to sell I-pods and call your self an audio engineer. In other states the registration laws are such that they could require you to be registered before doing that. In some states even though your action might be illegal, the state board might not care enough to take any6 action.

I think it would be nice if there were more restrictions on the use of the term engineer. However train operators have always been called engineers so you don't have to be registered to call your self a train engineer.

Personally I don't like the term software engineer or MSCE where it means Microsoft Certified Engineer.

 

[JLSeagull]

Differentiate PE licenses with job titles. A chemical engineer is often called a process engineer. Check

http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional/

to identify the NCEES P&P examinations. A Computer exam exists within Electrical and Computer. This exam covers hardware, systems, networks and software. Thus, a chemical engineer by education who writes software programs may be registered within the electrical and computer engineer exam. This however is not the same as a Microsoft certified technician being called an engineer.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I practice everyday - someday - hopefully - I will get it right...

Just had to say that.

 

[msquared48]

Ok...

Take the case though of the College professor, who has a Doctorate in his engineering discipline, but is unlicensed as any type of engineer. He has published many research papers and is known nationally. He is a recognized member of a National engineering organization. As an individual, separate from his university, he gives expert witness reports and testimony employing the engineering principles of his engineering profession and receives compensation for it.

This sounds highly unethical and illegal to me. Am I missing something? Any comments?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[plasgears]

In a large aviation company some years ago, when the top dog recommended the PE, hundreds responded among the graduate engineering staff. The PhD's avoided the exam or efforts to gain recognition thru grandfathering. The PE appeared to be beneath their dignity.

I earned the PE, but I know an MME who failed. The review process included a brief interview during the course of the exam. I think he failed during the interview. He was foreign born with a marginal command of fluent english.

My estimation is that the PE is the legal approval for practice of engineering, and those otherwise qualified as experts need not qualify for the PE. In some industries [e.g. structural] it is mandatory.

 

[RARWOOD]

I believe in some states what you describe would not be a violation of the engineering practice statues, as long as he doesn't represent himself as a P.E. I think the difference is that he is not providing engineering services to the public, instead he is providing testimony for a legal procedure.

In most states the courts define who may provided expert witness testimony. In the case you describe I would consider the person an expert in his or her field. In court the judge might decide the person is not an expert, while at the same time taking expert testimony from an actor who played an engineer as one of his roles.

I am aware of a case similair to what you describe where the professor was doing consulting work, in that case the state board charged him with violation of the engineering practice requirements. The person then was required to get his P.E. before doing that type of work again.

A simple example would be a college proffesor, who teaches structural design. In Minnesota they could not design a Shopping Mall unless they were registered or work under the direct supervsion of a P.E.

 

[JLSeagull]

Texas has several very specific exemptions. Cited details include Qualified Scientists for weather, seismology, etc.; and Employees of Institutions of Higher Education for research.

An application section applies to engineering educators who can seek licensure based upon a doctoral degree in engineering by an EAC/ABET accredited university or other field of science or math. They still need reference statements or letters from licensed PEs knowledgable of their experience.

Curiosly, expert engineering testimony is listed among the engineering experience that can be considered for the purpose of obtaining a license (§133.43 (I)). I wonder if it counts toward or against the individual. ;-)

 

[msquared48]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the input. I'll check it out with my board too. Sounds like it's probably OK as he does not list PE after his name.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[diarmud]

I'm not an attorney but I've been involved in a few expert witness issues.

It depends on the court (state or federal) and the state licensing board (and how involved they may want to be).

Several years ago I questioned the qualifications of an expert witness. The attorneys (on my side) relayed that it is somewhat arbitrary and they can be challenged.

PE's in New York State can generally be expert witnesses and the PE is the proof. In this state it appears as though courts recognize a license as conferring a certain level of expertise that would not be given to a layman.

On the other hand, I've seen opposing attorneys at deposition dig into qualifications and resumes of PE's in a very detailed, challenging and embarassing way.

Not really knowing, I'd guess the prof will be considered an expert witness if the issue involves his(her) area of expertise.

Good luck,
Dermott

 

[RARWOOD]

I only know two things about expert witness testimony.

1. If you are on the stand and they ask you if you are an expert, you better say Yes.

2. As far as I am aware, at least in a few states, you can't be forced to give expert witness testimony unless you are being paid to do so.

 

[JStephen]

It might help to be a lot more specific in your question.

There are some practices that seem to be fairly common that don't seem to be allowed by the rules. And there are practices that were apparently common in the past that are no longer allowed. The rules change, and people doing engineering, especially under various exemptions, may or may not be aware of (or care about) the changes. Don't just assume that because someone says it's okay, or they've been doing it that way for 20 years, or they can't see why it wouldn't be allowed, etc., that it is okay.

Theoretically, any job that requires a PE to properly do, should also serve as adequate experience for getting a PE license, if that helps.

 

[stevenal]

There seem to be two issues involved here:

Will the court allow an unlicensed individual to give expert testimony? The lawyers will state why or why not, and the judge will decide based on the arguments. The question of licensure may or may not come up.

Does providing expert engineering testimony qualify as engaging in the practice of engineering so that state licensure is required? I am not aware of any exemptions for this so I will say yes. By the way, the lawyer, defendant, claimant, or respondent who paid his fee is a member of the public. They probably also have the individual's business card, which I expect does not just state that the professor is available for lectures.

 

[IRstuff]

from California's PE Act

Any person practices civil engineering when he professes to be a civil engineer or is in responsible charge of civil engineering work.

An expert witness is not necessarily doing either.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[stevenal]

At the time I wrote my response above, my latest edition of PE was still lying unopened on my desk. Upon opening it, I found a very similar question in the Legal Beat column. I must say that I found Mr. Schwartz's answer in agreement with my own. He did add a few choice tidbits, however:

Legal interpretations vary from state to state on the issue.

The unlicensed expert should expect to be reported to the state licensing board in question, courtesy of opposing counsel.

Assuming the board did not rule in his favor, the unlicensed expert may then find it difficult to collect his fee, since an illegal contract is unenforceable.

 

[msquared48]

stevenal:

Could you p[lease scan and post that article? I would like to read it. Thanks.

The fee collection is probably a moot point here due to the time issue. Interesting though.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering