"Project Engineer" Title 10

[knelli]

Hi,

I am a licensed professional engineer (structural) that works for a Design Build firm. Our company managers have a habit of calling new project managers "Project Engineers". I have a problem with this, because the people they are titling as "Project Engineers" are new out of school with, at most, a 4 yr construction management degree (not engineering based). They then move up to being a "Project Manager" after gaining some experience.

My first job before I was licensed was at an A/E firm and we were not allowed to be called Engineers until we recieved our license. Is anyone aware of legal issues with calling a project manager and Engineer without an engineering background?

We do a lot of work with the government, and I could see a big issue with a new PM giving advice on a project, and others taking their advice because they assume they have engineering credentials (such as recommendations on shoring, removing forms, and other means and methods issues that would usually be asked to an engineer).

I was told that "Project Engineer" is an industry accepted term for a green or new "Project Manager" What are your thoughts?

 

[Ussuri]

In my old line of work a Project Engineer generally was the Engineer in charge of managing the Project. AKA Project Manager.

In my current line of work any Engineer that works on a Project is a Project Engineer.

The title varies from industry to industry and probably from country to country.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Where I work, a "Project Engineer" is in charge of a project, from proposal, through delivery to billing.

- Steve

 

[SNORGY]

Up here...

A "Project Manager" does not need to be a licensed engineer, nor is a degree in engineering required. A "Project Engineer" needs to at least have an engineering degree and must be registered either as an engineer in training or a professional engineer.

The instant you use "Engineer" in the job title, it's against the law to be anything other than an engineer.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[knelli]

Hey Snorgy,
What state do you work in and do you know if there is a specific state that it is illegal to use "engineer" in your title? In Wisconsin, it is illegal to use the term "professional engineer" without licensure. Thanks,
-K

 

[SomptingGuy]

Oh dear, we're heading back into that groove again, where everyone assumes US laws apply universally.

- Steve

 

[knelli]

I am in the US, so I am concerned with US laws... sorry, I did not clarify my location. Let me know what country you are from if replying, so I know what is acceptable where.... thx

 

[spongebob007]

"The instant you use "Engineer" in the job title, it's against the law to be anything other than an engineer."

Unless you are in an exempt industry.

 

[spongebob007]

Most (but not all) states in the U.S. have a clause that allows for an industrial exemption.

 

[PeterStock]

In an exempt industry, it would be legal to use the term "Project Engineer" for someone without a PE license. However the OP was for a Design/Build firm and is talking about construction. I would think that would be a legal issue.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[Noway2]

Oh dear, we're heading back into that groove again, where everyone assumes US laws apply universally

Thankfully they don't.

In my opinion, the term "professional engineer" has a specific meaning as one who has a PE license. I don't agree that one should have to have a PE to be called or titled as an engineer. The reason being that the work that requires a PE or that is typically done by a "professional engineer" is only a small subset of the Engineering work of the world. In the areas that don't, most companies go through a process of certification and testing to a defined set of standards by an NRTL which is usually intended to be equivalent to the services of the PE. Should someone at least be required to hold an engineering degree from an accredited institution? Perhaps, but does this requirement fit in all cases?

I have frequently had a conversation with a fellow engineer who is married to a lawyer (in the USA). We agree that as a professional discipline, engineering went wrong in that it does not require some form of formal process of obtaining a license and continuing certification and ongoing learning. If it had, as a profession, engineers would be in the same position as doctors and lawyers and would also be able to command the salaries that those professions get. We also agree that there is a general skill set that all engineers should possess, but beyond that there is so much variety that having one certification and one test for all is not practical and instead it should be at least geared towards the discipline (electrical, mechanical, chemical, etc).

 

[zdas04]

See me running screaming from the room.

Before I go let me provide my standard advice--Don't ask your bridge club for medical advice or a bunch of geek engineers for legal advice. If you have a legal question, read the law in your jurisdiction and if you can't make sense of it hire a lawyer to explain it to you.

David

 

[knelli]

Thanks,
I know Wisconsin's law, but we have went from a local, general contractor and have grown much larger, now recognized as a federal contractor doing work all over the country in many different states.

I thought that maybe someone has run into this before, and at least could tell me what state they are in, or ran into the problem with so at least I could track down and read the laws in a handful of states, instead of 50.

The managers of the company are disagreeing with me on this, which is fine as long as they are not setting the company up for a legal issue. I certainly am not going to pay the lawyer and as long as they disagree, they certainly won't until its a problem for them.

Thanks to anyone who can point me in the right direction.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Running, scremaing, yeah!

I wonder how the real big engineering communities will self-regulate.

- Steve

 

[FeX32]

Same thing about every 2 days here.....


Fe

 

[SNORGY]

My apologies...

By "up here", I meant "in Canada".

We don't have (based on my understanding) industry exemptions like the U.S.. It's pretty black and white: you cannot use "Engineer" in your job title unless you actually have a degree in engineering and are registered in good standing as an "engineer" in the applicable jurisdiction.

I erroneously thought that the same would apply in the U.S. - that there would be an equivalent exclusive right to title protected by similar laws.

What Noway2 alludes to in his closing paragraph may be true in the U.S., but in Canada, there actually *is* "...a formal process of obtaining a license and continuing certification and ongoing learning...". I believe that is largely why the right to title can be protected by law.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[zdas04]

OK, it is like watching the same train wreck over and over, but there is a twist here that I have recent knowledge of.

With regard to Federal projects in the U.S., stand by for a major change. Federal regulations (especially EPA) are starting to require P.E. signature and stamp on many different reports, forms, etc. The EPA is silent on whether you need a stamp from a local state or if will any stamp do. We are starting to see big firms stamp things like the EPA Spill Prevention and Countermeasures Control (SPCC) form with out-of-state stamps. In New Mexico, the Board has stated the opinion informally that this is not legal, but there has not been an enforcement proceeding yet. When the first enforcement action is requested, it will certainly be followed by a "cease and desist" letter to the companies involved. I expect this to evolve into a major "States Rights" issue that will force a change in the federal regulations. The board in my state has been very clear that if you stamp something which has any chance of impacting public health and safety within the state then the stamp has to say "New Mexico" on it.

David

 

[FeX32]

Good go for it. (the argument)
My last attempt at "arguing" or rather explaining the LAW ended up with all deleted posts...


Fe

 

[Ron]

...at the risk of continuing the pi$$ing contest...

knelli...The company I worked for some years back received a cease and desist letter from our state board for allowing EI's to use the term "Project Engineer" since they were not yet licensed.

While the states vary a bit on their protected titles, in general you can't use the term "engineer" in your title or offering unless you are in an exempt category, and even then you generally have to have a 4-year degree in engineering.

Construction/Design Build are by no means exempt categories. My guess is your company is violating your state law. Do they hold a certificate of authorization to practice engineering in Wisconsin?

 

[SomptingGuy]

"the LAW"" only applies locally. No matter how big the font is or even if you use capitals. USA is a teeny weeny part of the World.

- Steve