removing yourself as the EOR 17

[SLTA]

Have any of you ever removed yourself from a project as the EOR, officially? I heard from a homeowner today that she and her contractor had greatly modified the methods etc described on my drawings, to the point here what they described may be unstable, and I don't want to be responsible for the project any more. (I was never told the project had moved past permitting stage.) I sent an email saying that no one can be in the house and work must stop until such a time as I see that it's safe. I'm meeting with her and him on Monday to see the condition they've created. I also have a call into the building dept, but they're closed on Fridays. Yep.

I'm curious to hear others' experiences. If the contractor and owner decide to build something totally different than what the permit set shows, with my stamp, am I still liable for issues, especially if they never told me work had even started?

What a great way to start a weekend.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[Rye1]

My understanding is if something was not built as your signed drawings indicated, then you are not liable. If the homeowner and the contractor modified your drawings, they are practicing engineering and you can turn them into your local board.



Robert Billings

http://www.newrivereng.com

 

[CELinOttawa]

The best and eternal advice: As a Professional you cannot lie, and shall not conseal... So ask your licensing board. They are often very helpful, and if you are in a compromised position, self-reporting is the best possible outcome for a legitimate engineer.

In short, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Were Pascal alive, he's be dialling the phone for you...

 

[msquared48]

SLTA:

Yes. Just write a letter to the building department citing your reasons and send a copy to the client, contractor, and your lawyer.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[SNORGY]

I would think, or hope, that you would be held responsible for what you drew, not what they built - unless they built exactly what you drew. Engineering drawings are not discretionary.

Yes, I have had my name removed as EOR, but my circumstances were bizarre beyond Dilbert proportions, and it was a ridiculously difficult process that almost resulted in me suing the companies, the people, my employer, a Regulator, and a Provincial Government involved. I should have, in retrospect; perhaps I would have made enough money that I wouldn't have to still be working today.

 

[Ron]

What Mike said!

In addition, if you feel the structure is unsafe, ask the building department to put a stop-work order on it and have the site shut down. You've already done that from your perspective, but you have to be careful that you take on a stop work responsibility that you can be held liable for in construction delay claims. You're probably safe in this case, but it is better to have the AHJ make that happen.

 

[Ron]

Also, once you are satisfied that work has been stopped and you want out, write another letter to the client, contractor, building official and the state board stating the facts and that you are removing yourself from any EOR responsibility and further activity. Copy everything to your lawyer!

 

[SLTA]

Well, I went out to the site yesterday morning and the upper two floors of the house were unsupported, as the full length of the lower exterior wall had been removed and there was absolutely no shoring for the remaining exterior wall (1920s, super-heavy wood and sheathing, etc). Awesome. They just decided to ignore that part of my drawings. So, I called the city inspector out to the site and he totally agreed with me. He put a stop work and a do not enter/unsafe building on it. He was kind of flabbergasted by it... We came up with a shoring solution, which I was going to draw up yesterday afternoon to get to the owner and contractor this morning. Then, the plan was to proceed with the original shoring and beam installation, as shown on my drawings.

The owner called me twice yesterday after I left the site, to ask why we have to do all this shoring and can't we just put in the beam, etc. Seeing as how the baseplates haven't been fabricated for the posts under the replacement beam, she wants to change the beam to a drop beam, and she has decided to switch contractors - um, no, the temp shoring wall needs to go in right away. Then she asked if she can't just put in a post in the middle and be done with it. (This is a 24' long opening!) I reminded her that the house is unstable and no work can be done until the house is shored. Then she blamed me for causing delays in the project, when I'm the one trying to stop the house from falling down or anyone from getting hurt... and I hadn't even been notified that work started back in June, until last Friday afternoon.

Long story short, she decided to terminate the contract with me. So, I'll write all my letters as recommended, and wish her the best of luck finding another engineer in town willing to touch this project as it stands. Yikes. I did also call my state board's lawyer, and he agreed that I did exactly the right thing. So that's good.

Isn't engineering supposed to be one of the non-drama professions? *sigh*

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[msquared48]

Good for you. She is just an accident waiting to happen.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[IRstuff]

"Isn't engineering supposed to be one of the non-drama professions? *sigh*"

The only non-drama professions are the ones that have no people involved. About the only difference between professions is probably the types of drama or dramaedy seen.

TTFN
faq731-376

Need help writing a question or understanding a reply? forum1529

Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

 

[CELinOttawa]

And yet another reminder of WHY an engineer's involvement has become a legislated requirement in many jurisdictions...

Good job. Cuddos for your professional and ethical handling of this train wreck.

Remember to bill her for ALL work you put in, not just what was quoted originally. She is legally obligated to pay for your additional, unplanned, site works. You may even be able to stick a higher rate for emergency services, but I wouldn't do that... I would demand to be paid for all work undertaken right up to the moment she (foolishly) said "stop".

 

[SLTA]

cheers, folks. and CEL - I absolutely charged her for all the time, and included the page of conditions from the contract saying that she has agreed to pay me if she cancels. We'll see how fast that check comes.

It will actually be interesting to follow this from afar. This poor house.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[CELinOttawa]

Nice... I love that you have empathy for the house!

 

[SNORGY]

SLTA...

By chance...

Does she have an MBA?

 

[SLTA]

HA SNORGY... Not that I know of. Maybe you should give her an honorary MBA.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[KENAT]

"Isn't engineering supposed to be one of the non-drama professions? *sigh* "

I'm still chuckling over that one.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[SNORGY]

SLTA,

One day, I'll relate my story about how I removed myself as EOR, and under what circumstances. I just didn't want to hijack your post and do it here.

I am continually dumbfounded by improperly-credentialed, naiive twits who figure they can short-cut the system and engage in the practice of engineering just because they think they are smarter or better than professional engineers in matters specific to engineering. They aren't, and neither should we perpetuate a system in this society that encourages them to continue to believe that they are. We don't let nurses do it to doctors, we don't let vet techs do it to vets, we don't let dental hygienists do it to dentists, we don't let teachers' aides do it to teachers, we don't let paralegals do it to lawyers, we don't let security guards do it to police officers...and yet, much to my own personal disillusionment, we often find ourselves having to modestly explain why technologists or common high school graduates or housewives or - worse - MBAs - shouldn't be given the license to do it to us. I view it as perverse, obscene and blasphemous. When stuff like this happens, we have to slam it hard and stop it.

The main thing is, you acquitted yourself not only with intelligence and grace, but magnanimously as well. Good on you. I suppose that approach is classier than smacking them upside the head with a T-square or something.

 

[TheTick]

I do find it an interesting tangent that your client is a woman. Had the client been male, an outsider may view the client's actions as having sexist motivation.

 

[SLTA]

SNORGY, hijack away!

TheTick, interesting. There are plenty of women who are biased against other women in technical positions, but that's not the vibe I got from her. I'm just glad to be out of it!

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[SNORGY]

SLTA...

OK...

So, about 5 years ago, I am sitting at my computer working away. A message pops up on my screen from the Provincial Authority Having Jurisdiction (The "Regulator"):
"This email is to advise that your facility design (xxxx-xxxx) has been approved for construction."

I think, "That's odd. I haven't designed anything in that Province for the past 3 years."

So, I email the Regulator. "What facility? What design? What Client / Operating Company? Is there any contact information you can give me?"

Some accurate paraphrasing of telephone conversations ensues below.

[Regulator] "Do you forget what you have designed and for who?"
[SNORGY] "Well, I certainly don't remember this one. What is it and who is it for?"
[Regulator] "Is your name not {SNORGY} and is your Professional Membership Registration number not (xxxxx)?"
[SNORGY] "Yes, and yes."
[Regulator] "Then we have the right person and your facility has been approved for construction."
[SNORGY] "What facility? For who? Who is the Client Company and who can I speak to there?"
[Regulator] "{yyyyyy} is the Client Company. The design by (Engineering Contractor zzzz} has your name, number and seal as the Engineer Of Record, and it has been approved for construction."
[SNORGY] "I don't work for, nor have I ever worked for, {Engineering Contractor zzzz}. There is an obvious error here. Please remove my name as the EOR."
[Regulator] "We cannot do that. It is in the computer database. Once it gets into the computer database, we can't change it."
[SNORGY] "I don't give a rat's ----. Remove my name as EOR even if you have to blow up your server to do it."
[Regulator] "We suggest you speak to someone at {yyyyyy}. We cannot alter the computer database records."
[SNORGY] "I will do that now."

**click***

[SNORGY] "Yes. I would like to speak with {contact person at yyyyyy}."
[{yyyyyy}] "Good job, thank you for your efforts. Construction starts next week."
[SNORGY] "Well, have fun with that, but I didn't design anything for you. Ever."
[{yyyyyy} "Sure you did. I have your Seal and Professional Membership Number on the cover page of the application right here on behalf of {Engineering Contractor zzzz}."
[SNORGY] "Well, I'll tell you the same thing I told {Regulator}. I don't work for {zzzz} and I don't know a thing about this facility application."
[{yyyyyy}] "Really? Then why did you stamp and submit it?"
{SNORGY] "OK, never mind, I will take this up with the Professional Association in the Province of {

http://wwww}."

**click**

[SNORGY] "Hello. Yes, I need to immediately have my name removed as the EOR for the project for {yyyyyy} designed by {zzzz} that was recently registered by {Regulator} in the Province of {

http://wwww}."

[Association] "Why?"
[SNORGY] "There has been a mistake. I did not do the design, I did not submit the application, I have never done any work for {yyyyyy} and I am not, nor have I ever been, employed by {zzzz}."
[Association] "So how did {Regulator} approve the application?"
[SNORGY] "Apparently nobody knows, other than it has been entered into the computer database where it is impossible to change the data entered therein."
[Association] "Oh. That sounds like a bad situation. We cannot do anything to help you, but we sincerely hope that you can resolve it shortly."
[SNORGY] "Perhaps then I can ask you to immediately cancel my membership as a Professional Engineer within the Professional Association in the Province of {

http://wwww},

so that construction cannot proceed."
[Association} "You have paid your membership dues and are in good standing. Your membership will automatically lapse if you elect not to renew approximately 7 months from now."
[SNORGY] "Listen. Cancel my membership. Now."
[Association] "No need for that. We understand your frustration. We recommend you seek legal counsel. Here is a number for a good law firm. The first half hour is free."
[SNORGY] "I will call them now."

**click**

[SNORGY] "Hello. This is my situation."
{Law Firm] "That is indeed cause for legal action. You should find out how this happened. We would be happy to help once you do. Thank you for the call."
[SNORGY} "I will do that. I will advise invoicing instructions shortly."

**click**

So, SNORGY does some digging internally within SNORGY's employer's offices. As it turns out, one of the "Project Engineers" (who is not an engineer, has not finished a diploma as a technologist, and who is working on obtaining certification in the field of Criminology - thank goodness not pursuing an MBA - and yet, who is nonetheless placed in charge of professional engineers in this workplace) instructed the Regulatory personnel to take SNORGY's registration information and copy of the electronic file of SNORGY's Professional Engineering stamp, open up an account using SNORGY's identification with the automated computer database system at {Regulator}, and submit the application in SNORGY's name on behalf of {zzzz}, for whom SNORGY has never worked. Somewhat irritated by this development, SNORGY calls an immediate internal meeting with his employer's senior management, the supervisor of the "Project Engineer" involved, the head of the employer's Regulatory personnel, and, of course, the "Project Engineer". What follows is an accurate paraphrasing of the conversation in the meeting room.

[SNORGY] "All right, listen up you ------- idiots. You might think that it's perfectly acceptable to do this, but let me explain what this constitutes, in my mind."
[Senior Management] "No need to be upset, you are making an unnecessarily big deal out of nothing here. Relax."
[SNORGY] "Are you clowns freaking kidding me? This is fraud, at my expense and at the expense of tarnishing my credibility as a Professional Engineer in the Province of {

http://wwww}."

[SNORGY] "I worked hard to obtain my accreditation as a Professional Engineer, and it's disturbing that you idiots trivialize what is mine and what it means."
[SNORGY] "This country has laws that deal with this kind of thing. I have engaged legal counsel and I will be holding every moron in this room accountable for this."
[SNORGY] "Unless you immediately fire "Project Engineer"."
[Senior Management] "We are not going to do that. What we will do is ask "Project Engineer" to apologize."
["Project Engineer"] "Heck no, I am not apologizing. I did what I had to do to get the job done."
[SNORGY] "You stole my identity and my professional credentials and have left me in a situation where I have to negotiate with the Regulator, the Association and the Government to remove me as EOR."
[SNORGY] "You should be fired. And, you are working towards certification in what field? Good luck with that."
[Senior Management] "SNORGY, you are making way too much out of this. It's nothing. Besides, we are definitely not going to fire "Project Engineer", apology or otherwise."
[SNORGY] "OK, I gotta ask, why the heck not?"
[Senior Management] "{"Project Engineer"} brings in revenue to the company."

**meeting adjourned**

So, now SNORGY knows where he stands. He types the following correspondence to {Regulator} and {Association}:

[SNORGY] "Per your instructions, I am working on resolving this issue myself. I have engaged the services of {Law Firm} who will be preparing paperwork for you in an upcoming legal action."
[SNORGY] "Please advise, to which one of you two Organizations shall I submit their first and all subsequent invoices?"

**fast forward two months**

SNORGY was able to convince {Regulator} and {Association} to figure out a way to edit the computer database records and remove SNORGY's name as EOR. SNORGY now works elsewhere. "Project Engineer" still works for {Past Employer}, because "Project Engineer" still brings in revenue.

And people wonder why I get frustrated with non-credentialed idiots running engineering companies and having dominion over engineers.

And, no, I didn't make any of this up.