Replace Propylene Glycol with this? 1

[Texas73]

I am interested in trying to find a product that is a superior coolant/heat transfer agent to propylene glycol for racing engine applications. The current market leader sell what's called "Engine Ice". Racers all seem to think it's some supercoolant or something. If you read the site, it's just good old propylene glycol mixed 1:1 with deionized water. Dow sells it premixed like that. I bet that where he gets it...ARG!. I'm in search of something that could possibly outperform it. Specifically a higher boiling point without corrosion.
I came across Dynalene Heat Transfer Fluids (

http://www.dynalene.com)

and was looking at their Dynalene LO-230.

Can someone have a look at these properties and tell me if they think it would work? and point out potential problems with it. I'm more interested in a high boil point than freeze protection. Most people don't race in -50 F weather, they race in 100 degree F heat.

It looks like it would work to me, but I'm not a chemist so I don't know.
Help?

 

[btrueblood]

The thermal conductivity is much lower than water, it won't perform as well as pure H2O. If you want something better than the 50/50 prop. glycol mix, run a 10% by volume mix of glycol and water. The more water, the better the cooling (heat transfer properties).

..and this fluid has a flash point that's way too low for my comfort - you'd be "cooling" with kerosene...

 

[vonbad]

texas73,
btrueblood is correct. Water is an ideal heat transfer fluid, although it is (can) be corresive. The glycol is an additive to reduce/eliminate corrosion.

Look up the same properties of water as the fluid you list and you will see why.

 

[IRstuff]

Slight correction. The glycol is usually added to change the freezing and/or the boiling points. F.E., 70/30 EG has a -60ºF freezing point and 242ºF boiling point

If you read the literature for most antifreezes, there are separate additives that provide the corrosion protection, and they're usually proprietary formulas.

TTFN

 

[Montemayor]

Tex:

If you're a Chemical Engineer you'll recognize that btrueblood & vonbad are exactly right. This is straight out of basic heat transfer design 101.

All the glycol does is furnish an anti-freeze protection; it lends no heat transfer improvement to a cooling application. Why are you seeking a higher boiling fluid? Do you think you'll vaporize the water out of your cooling jacket? That's why the radiator is pressurized with the fluid's vapor pressure; all the coolant should be contained. If your racing engine is designed with appropriate heat transfer surface, it can be cooled just as efficiently as anything else. And using a fluid with a high thermal conductivity is a step in that direction.

 

[IRstuff]

If you compare the thermal conductivity values, you'll see that the liquid is barely 1/3 as thermally conductive as 30% EG

TTFN

 

[vonbad]

IRstuff thank you for the correction. Must have been a brain bubble.

 

[Texas73]

S btrueblood is correct, that a mix if 90%/10% water/PG mix should outperform a 50/50 mix for heat tranfer?

 

[btrueblood]

Texas,

Not only is 10% glycol better (than 50% mix), but 0% glycol is better yet as an engine coolant; provided you don't care about freeze protection.

 

[IRstuff]

As mentioned before, pure water is the best, but you'll need to add some corrosion inhibitors.

Most antifreeze or coolant manufacturers also sell anti-corrosion additives.

TTFN

 

[Texas73]

also like mentioned those inhibitors are propiatary. So I can't exactly pull a bottle of a store shelf, repackage and claim it as my own.

 

[Texas73]

What I'm confused on is, I like most people have it stuck in my head that PG protects your vehicle from overheating by raising the boiling point.

Would a vehicle with 100% water, overheat faster than a vehicle with 10% PG, or 50% PG? if left sitting idle?

My worry is that the race bikes sit and idle for a few minutes before racing, engines are revved, etc. There's no air circulating over the radiators to cool them. Should they be OK in this situation with water, or would adding 10% PG raise the boiling point to help add a little extra insurance?

 

[IRstuff]

If you are that worried about boiling point, you need a BIGGER radiator and run with some reasonable mix.

All the information you've asked for is readily available on the web.

TTFN

 

[Montemayor]

Tex:

The heat rejected by the engine -if your system is designed properly - will go into your coolant fluid. Of course, this will only happen - once again - if your cooling system is designed and working properly. The way a cooling system is designed properly is that it incorporates as much heat transfer area as possible, circulates as much coolant as feasible, and keeps the inlet temperature of the coolant as low as possible. All this maximizes the heat transfer - coupled, of course, with a coolant that has the ability to absorb the rejected heat: it has good thermal conductivity and a good heat transfer film coefficient. This is all explained, as I stated earlier, in basic heat transfer design 101. This is why the guys are telling you that water is the best fluid to use - barring freeze & corrosion protection. The boiling point of the fluid is generally irrevalent: water does not "boil" in an automobile radiator. The water boils when the pressure is removed from the radiator by venting. All fluids exhibit a vapor pressure increase when heated - but they don't "boil" if kept contained. This is exactly what happens in a hot water heater - you heat the water but its vapor pressure is kept below that corresponding to boiling. You don't convert the water into steam ("boil").

IRstuff is correct. If you expect a tough cooling load, then design appropriately and beef up your radiator. The coolant fluid change-out is never the right solution. More heat transfer area (& perhaps more coolant circulation) usually is the correct answer for these type of problems.

 

[IRstuff]

In a way, modern technology seems to have eliminated much practical education in things like this.

Once you've experienced boilover when removing the radiator cap while the coolant is still hot, you'll never forget that the coolant, under pressure, doesn't boil, at least not systemically.

There are other threads here that indicate some sort of flash evaporation or localized boiling within certain engines due to poor heat spreading.

TTFN

 

[JimCasey]

Size the radiator for the appropriate water temperature. You don't WANT the temperature to go to a zillion degrees. Once the water gets much above 220, the aluminum parts that run hotter than the water are starting to soften, the oil is beginning to get too thin and to oxidize, and thermal expansion of differential metals is going past limits where things begin to yield. Also, the heat is transferred through the intake port into the incoming air, reducing density, thus reducing power.
So why spend a lot of time trying to make a cooling system that will successfully overheat a racing engine so it will go more slowly or blow anyway?

Use water. Many sanctioning organizations don't allow antifreeze (too hard to clean up). Corrosion inhibitors are available off the shelf at any car parts store, but if you're racing seriously you probably don't even need corrosion inhibitors because you are yanking the engine (draining all the fluids) between events...so the engine is not sitting idly with nothing else to do but corrode.