Requirments for writing WPS and PQR's 2

[epadilla]

Hello everyone

I know this has probably been asked before but I find myself in a peculiar situation. I was in the process of hiring a Senior Welding Inspector to review and re-write our welding procedures but my boss has just informed me that "a janitor" can write WPS and QPR's. I know AWS states only a SWI can do this, but I can't find anything in API 1104 to support this requirement. Does anyone know where I can find some information in CFR 192 or API 1104? She states it's not a federal or state requirement. HELP

 

[weldstan]

Other than the "Welding supervisor" and Chief Engineer" designations on the sample WPS form, there are no requirements for the Welding supervisor; however, I would like to assist the attorney for the plaintiff should persons or property be injured/killed detroyed due to a poor weld made by your Company with the janitor's signature on the WPS.

 

[epadilla]

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who see's the legal issues..... God, I think I'm screwed

 

[dhengr]

Epadilla:
Does API have its own, stand alone, welding code, or do they refer to AWS or ASME as the primary welding std. and then provide some exceptions and additions to the that stds? In any case, they would likely be industry stds. and codes of some sort. Google CFR 192, then scroll down to sub part 192.225 and see if that leads you anywhere. There are a whole group of welding sub parts there. I’d send the boss a request to hire the janitor, at his/her suggestion, to rewrite the welding handbook, and let er fly. This just seems to prove once again what little knowledge, understanding and respect many company’s managements have for what real engineers actually do. If the general public only knew that this kind of thinking actually goes on in pipeline companies, and by their management monkeys, they would all be clamoring to have a pipeline in their own back yards. There’s plenty of good reasons to recommend pipelines as a means of transport, but this kind of quality and safety thinking ought to be grounds for dismissal.

 

[weldstan]

API 1104 is a Welding Code. For pipeline construction, it establishes the requirements for welding procedure and welder qualification. It also establishes the visual examination and volumetric NDE acceptance requirements for production welds.

 

[Duwe6]

What weldstan said; 1104 is a self-contained Code. The other major API Codes, 650/650, 570, 510 reference ASME Sect IX for WPS's. So epadilla, you have some studying to do. Use the forms from 1104 and fill in all the blanks. You will need a method to measure the welding DC amps & volts, and the coupon temperature. Ask us questions here on the blog. And if you still are seriously concerned about the final WPS, then your boss that you couldn't find a janitor, so he'll have to sign it.

 

[BUGGAR]

Regardless of the Codes, can you have a bad WPS and make a good weld?
How many welders have to "adjust" the WPS they were given to make a good weld?

 

[metengr]

What is a bad WPS? You have to qualify a WPS using a weld coupon. If you have a poor WPS it will not be acceptable for use because it could not be qualified, it is as simple as that.

 

[weldstan]

metengr:
I have seen some erroneously written WPSs that, if fully employed, could not produce a weld in the materials to be welded.

 

[JIPMKWA]

PQR's show the actual welding variables used when qualifying the procedure. Either the coupon will pass or it will fail destructive testing. Unless someone isn't recording the variables correctly during welding - I don't see how there can be a "bad" wps.

 

[BUGGAR]

Frequently contractors have to submit WPS' per the contract. WPS' are often pulled from a previous job and may not be applicable to the specifics of the present job. I frequently get welding procedures specs established a couple years ago.

Also, I think AWS requires WPS' for all welds, not just welds to be qualified (I'm at home with a beer so I can't get to my D1 right now.)

 

[BUGGAR]

Talked to an associate about this. His favorite is getting submittals for welder's qualifications for dead welders.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

AWS requires WPS's for all welds. Apart from copyright issues, a company can just copy a prequal sheet, put their logo on it, attach some WPQRs for the workers and go. Believe it or not, correctly filling in the data on WPS's, PQR's, and WPQR's for D1.1 and Section IX is the one thing above all else that most Certified Welding Inspectors struggle with. The problem being, it is boring as hell and you don't need to score 100% to pass the exam.

when you say Senior Welding Inspector, i assume you mean SCWI (Senior Certified Welding Inspector).... and not just going to the old folks home to find a welding inspector. If you want to hire one to write your procedures, get a consultant... that alone wouldn't merit a full-time staff. Now if you are talking about hiring a QC manager with a CWI, that is a much different story.... but the procedures is sidework.

When it comes to Welder Certs, i've seen many that are certified by people that wouldn't know where to start to complete the form or inspect the weld. We regularly received coupons to test, which we would generate the documentation for. For most welds, the person who signs the cert doesn't need to know much else about welding except to tell if the person is using the right materials and is in position. otherwise, they're most important job is to document that the welder indeed welded it alone, and is responsible to maintain a clean chain of custody of the coupon until delivery for inspection.

 

[gtaw]

Once again it is the 10-80-10 rule at work. 10% of a profession excel at their job, 80% do enough to get by, and 10% should be doing something else for a living.

A well written WPS provides the information the welder needs to properly set up and deposit weld that meet the mechanical properties of the code in a consistent manner. That is the purpose of the document, to provide direct to the welder.

I can't not tell you how many times I receive telephone calls from someone that ask, "We just qualified a WPS; where do I find the voltage, amperage, wire feed speed, flow rate, etc. so I can fill in the blanks?"

Just because a person passes the CWI exam is no assurance they know all there is to know about welding no more than a 16 year old that just passed their driver's test is ready to drive in the Grand Prix. Passing the CWI examination means the individual knows the basics of visual weld inspection. No more no less. There is a lot to learn before one can say they have a good understanding of the ins and outs of inspecting welds, writing WPSs, and learning how to organize and properly document the procedure qualification effort.

A comment like, "Anyone can do it." is akin to saying, "Anyone one can weld. I can hire 20 off the street tomorrow." To that I say there are a lot of rod burners, but few welders.

As I see it is the CWI examination does little to prepare one to develop welding documentation. The driver's license doesn't prepare the drive to be a mechanic. With a little additional training and experience, the newly minted CWI can write a good WPS and the newly minted drive can learn to be a mechanic, but only if there is a desire to pick up the books and read and only if one is to work with a mentor to learn the proper way to write the WPS, document the procedure qualification or tear down and rebuild an engine.

Best regards - Al

 

[69Firebird]

I will add in a quick thought here. As you did not state what type of work this is for. If this work is for a pump station or a compressor station I would go with ASME procedures. These facilities are governed by B31.4 and 31.8 and both allow procedures to be written to 1104 or Section IX, however, you will eed to write fewer procedures and have fewer welder qualifications if you use Sect IX. The actual inspections however will still follow 1104 acceptance criteria.

 

[darthsoilsguy2]

I agree with GTAW on this.
"As I see it is the CWI examination does little to prepare one to develop welding documentation."
WPS, PQRs, WPQRs make up a small percentage of the overall questions. A CWI who struggles should still be able to get those questions narrowed down to 2 choices and have a decent chance of passing if the examinee is strong in fundamentals of welding, basic metallurgy, and code for the other questions on the exam.

I want to add a little nuance to this comment for the other readers....
"Passing the CWI examination means the individual knows the basics of visual weld inspection."
Visual weld inspection is a separate test. you have to pass each of the tests separately to pass the exam. Fundamentals of Welding (closed book), Visual Inspection (open-book with tools), and Code of choice (open-book).... That said... notice there is no test dedicated to handling welding documentation. Welding documentation is buried inside the 3 exams, but as said what matters is pass/fail.

 

[Guest102023]

Your boss is partly correct - a janitor cannot write a WPS, but janitors DO write WPSs. In my experience welding inspectors don't necessarily do a great job either, especially when they start taking it upon themselves to take 'engineering decisions'.

However, your boss (I will call him an idiot here so you don't have to) is highlighting the biggest problem faced by actual welding engineers: it is the most heavily poached specialty there is, not just by amateurs but by other engineers. You see, everybody and his aunt knows a little about welding. But as a wise man once said, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Especially VERY little knowledge.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

 

[DekDee]

Guys,
I may have inadvertently contributed to the OP's problems.
I posted previously (not sure if on here or another forum) that anyone, even a janitor can witness the PQR test, document a PQR or formulate a WPS.
However, the question posted was who is permitted by the code to perform these duties. (ASME IX was the subject code).
The code only stipulates an employee of the "Organisation".
Anyone with the slightest of welding knowledge can witness the PQR test and document the results but a WPS mustbe written by a competent person with sufficient knowledge / experience.

"However, your boss (I will call him an idiot here so you don't have to) is highlighting the biggest problem faced by actual welding engineers: it is the most heavily poached specialty there is, not just by amateurs but by other engineers. You see, everybody and his aunt knows a little about welding. But as a wise man once said, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." Especially VERY little knowledge."

Agree totally with comments from brimstoner and Al,
Cheers,
DD

 

[Guest102023]

Then it is a good thing that janitorial work is usually contracted to outside companies these days. ;-)

.

"If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when are you going to find time to repair it?"

 

[gtaw]

There is a difference between a WPS that meets "code" and one that can actually be used by a welder. That's the trick; the individual tasked with developing the WPS has to comply with the appropriate welding standard and provide the welder with the information needed to produce a production weld that also is code compliant.

ASME provides little direction to a "newby" attempting to write a "good" WPS.

Consider: Per ASME Section IX, the contractor is not required to record the welding parameters used to weld the test coupon on the PQR. So, the newby does not both to witness the welding and no one bothers to record voltage, currant, wire feed speed, travel speed, etc. These variables are nonessential variables per Section IX, thus do not have to be recorded on the PQR.

Now the newby is tasked with writing the WPS. The welding parameters, defined as nonessential variables, must be addressed on the WPS per Section IX. The newby, not being a welder, not being a welding engineer, but qualified as a truck driver, janitor, or corporate CEO, fills in the blanks of the WPS form: Voltage: 0 to 240, Amperage: 0 to 300 amps, Wire Feed Speed: 0 to 1200 ipm, Travel Speed: As required. The requirements of ASME Section IX have been satisfied and the welder properly places the WPS next to the toilet bowl. The WPS now occupies its rightful place in the world in which we live.

Best regards - Al