residential structural ethics 2

[Dean1181]

I run into PEPPs who think they can solve a residential structural issue, but it is soon obvious to me that they are outside their area of expertise. As professional engineers, we are ethically bound to practice only in those areas in which we have the expertise.
My guess is they're hungry for any work, so they're into my field.
I don't want to expose them to the PE board, but are there any other ways to prevent them from besmirching the PE reputation?
Also what to do if one of these PEs renders a false opinion and I must respond, professionally, of course.

 

[apsix]

Ah, the Public Employees Pension Plan strikes again.

What's a PEPP?

 

[Patgeotech]

Dean1181,
Yes it is always a problem, professional people acting outside their field of expertise and when it goes wrong, they do not ask for help, but try to cover it up. It takes a good professional engineer to admit when he/she is wrong and ask for help - especially when he/she is not capable of doing the particular function required in the project. In our geotechnical work, we see structural/developer guys taking soil/rock matters into their own hands all the time - they never ask for help and always provide us with lots of remedial underpinning work at latter dates (which could have been avoided).

The question of reporting such people is a challenging one - why is it that when one comes into contact with such professional people do we not report them immediately, why do we wait? Are we worried that it will come back to haunt us? or will his/her lawyer step in and sue us? I think the sooner such professional people are reported the better, as it keeps them on their toes when they know someone is watching them or removes them from the area of expertise they should not be working in.

The problem we have is that the people that you report to are also out of their depth in terms of their expertise - often creates quite an interesting scenario.

 

[photoengineer]

It might be ethically wrong but the state board of engineers is only concerned with things that are legally wrong. That means: the board has to prove that their do not have contempency in the area they are practicing.

Determined people cannot be easily stopped. Don't waste your time on them. If they screw up frequently enough, their customers will eventually report them to the board, they will make newspaper headlines, or their insurance company will drop them.

Instead, focus on building your business. See my related thread "anonymous vs non-anonymous complaint".

 

[Qshake]

what are PEPPs?

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[Ussuri]

Professional Engineers Practicing Poorly??

 

[monkeydog]

Profesional EngineersIn Private Practice?

 

[Dean1181]

monkeydog wins the guessing game, but I did laugh at Ussuri guess.
Thanks everyone for your imput; I think I'll just ignore it, since the code of ethics does talk about "speak no evil" against another PE.

 

[msquared48]

Qshake:

PE PP's are unmentionable here.

dean1181:

Civil enginineers in WA can do residential design to either two ro three stories depending on the jurisdiction. Above that, a Structural is required.

As to Electricals, Mechanicals, Aeronauticals, Geotechs, etc. doing the same, I have not personally dealt with that. You might inquire of your state board though to see what they say on the matter.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[brandoncdg]

I can't believe a PE is willing to go outside what they are allowed to do and risk getting their name in the book. Being in that book should scare any registered person in this field to be ethical.

My partner will explain to clients what he knows about the structural related items and then he ends the sentence with, though your structural engineer needs to determine and design exactly what will be done.

CDG, Civil Engineering specializing in Hillside Grading in the Los Angeles area

http://www.CivilDevelopmentGroup.com

 

[JLSeagull]

Within Texas, some residential structure exemptions exist with limitations:
...
"(2) the person or entity is erecting, constructing, enlarging, altering, or repairing or is drawing plans or specifications for:
(A) a private dwelling;
(B) apartments not exceeding eight units for each building in the case of one-story buildings;
(C) apartments not exceeding four units for each building and having a maximum height of two stories;
(D) a garage or other structure pertinent to a building described by Paragraph (A), (B), or (C);
Texas Engineering Practice Act and Rules Page 10 of 68 Effective 9/20/09
(E) a private building to be used exclusively for:
(i) farm, ranch, or agricultural purposes; or
(ii) storage of raw agricultural commodities
(F) a building having no more than one story that:
(i) is not a building exempt from the licensing requirements of this chapter under Section 1001.053 or subject to Section 1001.407;
(ii) has a total floor area of not more than 5,000 square feet; and
(iii) does not contain a clear span between supporting structures greater than 24 feet on the narrow side.
(b) If a structure described by Subsections (a)(2)(F)(i) and (ii) contains unsupported spans greater than 24 feet, only the trusses, beams, or other roof supporting members must be engineered or pre-engineered.
(c) The exemption provided by this section does not apply to a person or entity that is:
(1) providing engineering design or inspection services necessary to comply with windstorm certification standards for a residential dwelling under Subchapter F, Chapter 2210, Insurance Code; or
(2) providing engineering design relating to constructing, enlarging, altering, or repairing, or drawing plans or specifications for, a residential dwelling slab located on expansive soil that meets the expansive soil classification provisions of the International Residential Code as applied in the jurisdiction in which the residential dwelling is located, unless the construction, enlargement, alteration, repair, or drawing of plans or specifications meets the International Residential Code requirements as applied in the jurisdiction in which the residential dwelling is located."

 

[Ron]

Dean1181...I doubt that you would ever convince an engineering board that an engineer who does commercial design can't do residential design. His or her designs might not be as efficient as one who specializes in residential design; however, it is not outside their expertise to do so.

Further, some states actually allow contractors to do residential structural design...which would you prefer?

The limitation on practicing within your area of expertise is usually fairly broad and applies more to crossing discipline lines than construction types.

Just because you don't agree with another engineer's solution to an issue, doesn't necessarily make it wrong...just different. It's up to you to convince others that your solution is a better idea, not that they have crossed a nebulous ethical or legal boundary that is often fuzzy at best.