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Result of inspection between Micrometer and CMM

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roberto1brazil

Mechanical
Apr 3, 2011
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BR
Hello
Please, I would like to have an idea of what can be happening when comparing inspection results between a CMM machine and conventional micrometer. Here at my company, we have a part (casing) which has a hole repaired making use of a bush installed in it. Just to clarify my question, I have attached a sketch displaying the main dimensions according to BP drawing. Due to a special internal requirement, it was asked to the operator to leave the final size of bush after machining to an internal diameter of 59,995 mm. He worked very carefully and reached at the final machining cut the dimension of 59,995 mm inspected with micrometer of three points. Refer to the photo to check the kind of micrometer in use. A dial gage (millesimal tolerance) was used to check the roundness of hole after machining and it displayed no more than 0,001mm at a depth of 8 mm approximately. The temperature of shop floor where the jig bore machine is located is 21°C ± 1°C. But it was necessary to check the internal diameter making use of another inspection process to be sure that the required dimension was achieved. The part was sent to a CMM machine (DEA- Global). The room temperature is also controlled (21°C ± 1°C). The calibration of probe is executed with each change of shift or when changing of probe type. The probe touchs eight points of internal diameter at a depth of 8,0 mm. the final result was an average diameter of 59,998 with a maximum diameter of 60,001 and minimum diameter of 59,996. My question is: What are the reasons to have this difference between the two results (it is minimum but there is). Is it due to the uncertainty of the each inspection equipment? The roundness displayed by CMM (60,001 -59,996) is actual or it is due to uncertainty of machine too? I apologize if I am asking something foolish but answers to those kind of questions are very difficult to be found.
Thanks and regards.

Roberto1Brazil
 
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If you were to take the measurement with the caliper multiple times at slightly different radial and axial positions you would certainly see some small variation across the readings.

The same with the CMM.

Your two measurements differ by 3/60000 or 0,005%.

Pretty good.
 
I trust hole mic's like the one shown in the picture. The technology has been around for about a century or more. They are quite reliable and repeatable, even in the hands of fairly new technicians.

CMM measurements can be reliable and repeatable too...but they can also be fubarred in many more unique ways that not many people understand. That I don't know of any CMM that is repeatable and accurate at .001mm or better doesn't mean much because I don't keep up with CMM technology. I do know that CMM measurements have a compound repeatability problem - i.e. each point measurement is a sum of two motions/movements and edge detections. For mechanical edge detection probes, a repeatable, high accuracy measurement is made by making sure the motion to contact (edge detection) is done in a direction as close to normal to the surface as possible, to avoid glancing contact and resulting errors. That usually requires two measurements, one to find the hole and map the edges with a "coarse" fit, and the second one then done with the motions adapted to the actual as-detected hole location and shape, to ensure the probe motion at contact was as close to normal as possible. If it was really critical, and maybe it's just me being anal, but I'd ask for a third measurement to be made and the results compared to the second (thus showing directly the repeatability of the measurement). Was that done? Possibly the CMM used optical edge detection, which in principle sounds better, but in reality...edge effects on light shining/glancing from the hole edges can give false shadows and create uncertainty in the measurement of around .0001" or so. Been there, done that.

Sorry, TLDR: I'm a grumpy old fart what don't trust fancy CMM machines and the idjuts what program them.
 
Hello everybody. Thanks a lot for all comments. I would add that our three points bore micrometer is Mitutoyo and according to CMM manual (DEA) the repeatibility is 0,003 mm (3 microns).
Regards

Roberto1Brazil
 
Monkey dog - no, not really, but what's your point. My old corolla has hand-cranked windows, and they go up and down just fine. But I don't dislike power windows much either, they work on my newer cars. But they don't have a very complicated job to do, either, and the limits of motion are set in the design, two endpoints and an over-torque cut out in case the dog gets his head trapped. Not at all like the one-offedness and infinite variability of inspection of complex geometry. Plus, using a cmm to measure a single hole is a bit like writing a computer program to add two numbers; it can be done, but is it really worth the time?

Roberto, the repeatability of the cmm is poorer than the repeatability/accuracy of the hole mic then?
 
It would be infinitely more useful if you provide EXACT make and model; Mitutoyo makes a slew of bore micrometers. Nevertheless, something like this likewise has ±3 um accuracy, so both sets of measurements are not necessarily inconsistent, based on the accuracy of the instruments involved.

You can go back and remeasure the bore with the micrometer with additional points to see if it shows the variance that the CMM shows, as well as add more data points to the CMM measurement

As a side note; if each instrument had been calibrated, what did the calibration reports say? For accurate calibration, the standard should have a test accuracy ratio (TAR) of at least 4:1, and ideally, 10:1. However, neither Mitutoyo nor Renishaw appear to have any calibration standards that are more accurate than ±1 micron. You would need see what their calibration reports said about their standards. In the worst case, you should get the micrometer calibration bore and CMM calibration sphere calibrated by a test lab if you plan on doing more of this sort of thing in the future.

In any case, I question the wisdom of machining something to the absolute edge of the specification, given that your drawing shows a 13-micron tolerance. A plausible approach would have been to allow for the measurement uncertainty and machine to, say, 59.992 mm, as an example. Or, if you need to, get a more accurate instrument, but ultimately, you still have to allow for the accuracy of whatever instrument you use to prove compliance.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
btrueblood,

There is no intention to be offensive, I was just ticked by your comment on being a grumpy old fart.

Just a cranky old fart to a grumpy old fart.
 
And don't get me wrong, a good CMM programmer can do some pretty awesome stuff, and a well written CMM program can verify a complex part's features in a tenth the time that a tech with manual equipment could do it. But like any really high tech device, there is a vast range of programmer skills out there.
 
I have been using inside micrometers, bore gauges, air gauges & CMM's for decades. What I tell all my trainee's: CMM for hole location, and if the hole diameter tolerance is tighter than .001, use hole mic, etc. for diameter. We ran a CMM test at Major Aerospace company several years ago, checked holes with min of 3 points, max of 12 points. We got the most accurate and repeatable values using 4 points. Still not as good as using hole gauges. Again: hole locations CMM, tight tolerance hole diameters NOT CMM.

Harold G. Morgan
CATIA, QA, CNC & CMM Programmer
 
Hi HGMorgan,

"hole diameter tolerance is tighter than .001...." .001 mm ? What were you making, superprecision bearings for machine tool spindles ?

thanks,

Dan T
 
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