Rubber stamping vs review work of someone that works remotely in another country? 15

[Fischstabchen]

I have someone that is want to offer me work to review someone else's design or use it as a basis for mine. I suspect the work is being done outside of the U.S. and a PE is needed to approve the design. When is it rubber stamping and when is it taking a company's design and running through it for review? Is there any part of this that is ethical?

 

[phamENG]

Rules vary by state. Some states allow you to review and confirm the work and then stamp it, others prohibit stamping anything that you or somebody employed by your firm did not produce.

As a rule, I consider it unethical. The reason is this: my engineering time will be no less, and my liability exposure will be no less. So my fee would not be significantly less (don't forget the back and forth and headaches when you disagree on something). So now the owner has been forced to pay for two engineers when they could have just hired me in the first place and only paid for one. I think perpetuating such things is unethical.

Now if the original engineer is retired or dead, that's another thing altogether and would be fine (even the strictest states have procedures for this).

 

[MintJulep]

NSPE clearly defined what they consider "Responsible Charge".

https://www.nspe.org/resources/issu...definition throughout their case evaluations.

Note however that document has passed its "sunset date".

 

[dik]

If reviewing another engineer's work, as a professional courtesy, I advise the other engineer that I'm reviewing his work. For example, the engineer that wrote the engineering report for the Algo Mall collapse in Ontario was informed that I was reviewing his report. The review was only for an internal company lunchhour 'slideshow' critique on how not to write forensic reports. I didn't advise him of the purpose.

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So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Just Some Nerd]

Not sure if this applies universally but I was under the impression that having engineering work reviewed does not pass design responsibility off from the designer to the reviewer.

If reviewing another engineer's work, as a professional courtesy, I advise the other engineer that I'm reviewing his work.

Honestly didn't even occur to me that the other engineer might not even know...the review process at my company is any queries/items raised are passed on by the client to the designer, and their responses sent back to us in order to close out items. No point doing all the reviewing if nobody gets the feedback, and no point calling it a review if you end up becoming the designer.

Here's a nice set of guidance imo:

https://www.acse.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Practice-Paper-24-Peer-Reviews.pdf

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Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[dik]

I always inform the client of my intent to inform... else, I don't take the project; the client can find another engineer.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

dik, JustSomeNerd - OP's question isn't about a 3rd party review. It's about an unlicensed individual performing engineering and then getting a licensed engineer to say it's okay. Always questionable, I think unethical, and only barely legal in some places. In many other places, it's illegal (Virginia and North Carolina for sure - those are the states where I practice the most).

 

[Fischstabchen]

Well, folks. I think it is more than what I said. The guy that runs the place, as far as I can tell, is unlicensed and his company is an unlicensed firm.

 

[phamENG]

And the plot thickens. If they are domestically based and doing that, then it's probably illegal to say nothing of the ethics. Some state boards impart on you a duty to report as part of your license, meaning failure to report an unlicensed person practicing could result in disciplinary action against you. I'm not sure how much those are enforced, though - I think I saw it show up once in a NC disciplinary list (something about abetting the unlicensed practice of engineering along with misuse of seal...which I took to mean rubber stamping somebody else's work). Something to think about.

 

[Fischstabchen]

phamEng,

He might be licensed in one of the other 49 states for all I know but no where does it say which state he is licensed in on his website or profile. During the phone call, I asked him why he just doesn't get reciprocity and stamp things himself and he just said that was something he was meaning to get to but hasn't. My gut says he is unlicensed and using engineers from India, Pakistan, and the Middle East to do the work and gets someone to stamp it for him in the U.S.. I don't know if I can show something is amiss without him giving me a proposal for a state I can check.

 

[phamENG]

He might be licensed in one of the other 49 states for all I know

That doesn't matter. Just the simple act of offering to do engineering for a project located in a state where you're not licensed is considered an offense in all of the states where I'm licensed. If somebody asks me to do work in a state where I'm not licensed, I can say "sure, it'll cost this much and I'll have to get xyz paperwork filed, etc." but I don't provide a formal proposal until I have my licenses and certificate of authority. But to advertise or accept and perform the work without a license is illegal regardless of how many other licenses you hold. So if they've approached you about a project in Oklahoma that he's already done and "just needs a stamp", and he's not a licensed PE in Oklahoma, he's probably violated Oklahoma's engineering regulations and would be subject to civil penalties if the board found out about it.

 

[dik]

I've done that numerous times, but always check what I seal... often a contractor will provide a detail that needs sealing. As long as I'm comfortable with the design and it's not for a mass produced item, or something 'shady', I don't have an issue with it.

One of my earlier job... back in the early 70s, was for wood trusses for housing... lumber with plywood gussets. I don't recall the fee, but likely less than $100. I don't know how many thousands of these were made. I never thought about it at the time... you grow older and learn; hopefully, without any problems.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

dik - big difference between a contractor saying "I've done this several times before, will it work here?" and you check it and approve the option vs. an unlicensed person offering and performing engineering design/consulting and then looking for somebody to stamp it for them. The first is generally okay (though again, in some states in the US there are restrictions on how and when even that can be done - like here, I'd have to produce their proposed detail to seal it to meet the letter of the law), the second is essentially never okay.

 

[dik]

I think the two are pretty similar... both can be unlicensed, and both can be skilled. They just need something confirmed by an 'expert'.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[271828]

I'm a little late to the party. My opinion is sealing anything for which one hasn't been in responsible charge is unethical. The NSPE link above spells it out.

This situation will just get worse as better design tools become available. I'm thinking about one highly-automated and hot design program right now. I've already had a few associates come to me wanting to have their detailer or remote engineer run the program, I review, and seal. They probably just found someone who would do it. As a profession, we need to say no.

 

[JStephen]

On the original question- check your state rules. Some states have provisions specifically for this kind of case, in others, it is apparently illegal.

On the "Why doesn't that other guy just get licensed"- possibly a lot of reasons. One issue that has been coming up in recent years is some of the states wanting you to furnish proof that you are a legal resident of the US. The intent is to rule out illegal residents in the US, but I don't know if this is also a ban on people that are not residents in the first place. And on some of the foreign stuff, you can have a major hassle getting transcripts evaluated, etc.

 

[Just Some Nerd]

It's about an unlicensed individual performing engineering and then getting a licensed engineer to say it's okay.

I believe we're in agreement here in practice. As a general note for this overall discussion I'd argue semantics that even so much as calling it a "review" is misleading/unethical, approving a design is equivalent to becoming the designer & assuming design responsibility in my eyes.

Some states allow you to review and confirm the work and then stamp it, others prohibit stamping anything that you or somebody employed by your firm did not produce.

No prizes for guessing which I prefer given my statement above.

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Why yes, I do in fact have no idea what I'm talking about

 

[MintJulep]

I suspect the work is being done outside of the U.S.

My gut says he is unlicensed and using engineers from India, Pakistan, and the Middle East

The situation would be exactly the same if it were Indiana, Pittsburgh and the Mid-West.

Think about why you feel the need to bring the location into the argument.

https://www.nspe.org/resources/pe-magazine/september-2017/nspe-adopts-new-policy-diversity

 

[Fischstabchen]

Mintjulep,

The location is important because it creates too many hurdles for any criminal prosecution or litigation. There is no reason for a foreign unlicensed firm to give two flips about any of the work they do in the same manner as someone living on U.S. soil. You pull similar stunts in the U.S. and you get prosecuted and fined. The fact that you are conflating this with diversity is hypocritical unless you go out of your way to see unlicensed doctors or get legal counsel by unbarred lawyers.

 

[MintJulep]

So if the request came from non-PE in Indiana, Pittsburgh or the Mid-West you would take the work?

It would still violate the NSPE Code of Ethics.