I am curious to know what safety agency approvals companies require of their motor control equipment (low voltage). This may include UL, CSA, CE, etc.. Does anyone not require UL or CSA for their motor control equipment in the North America? Do you just go by previous experience with the inspector for that particular area? Thanks
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Safety agnecy approvals
- Thread starter buzzp
- Start date
We have found it very necessary to have UL508 on manufactured motor control equipment. IEC947 in Europe. One off control systems need local inspector approval. Mark Empson
Various industries will have different standards that they require ranging from the many different ratings agencies and approval authorities. I would suggest you consult with some of the larger insurance companies. Insurance companies play a large role in this area since they will not honor any claim related to equipment that does not conform to the appropriate agency/testing standard.
Electrical inspectors here in the Northwest are very tuned in to UL labeling. If even one supplier has obtained a UL listing for a particular type of equipment, they will red-tag any similar equipment without UL label.
And as Marke indicates, any custom control panels must have UL508 label. This is not that difficult to obtain, but you do have to specify it.
I wouldn't even consider buying LV equipment without a UL label. This doesn't mean I think the UL label is buying any additional quality, but it is just a fact of life that equipment must be labeled to pass inspection.
Medium-voltage metal-clad switchgear and large dry-type transformers must have UL labels also.
And as Marke indicates, any custom control panels must have UL508 label. This is not that difficult to obtain, but you do have to specify it.
I wouldn't even consider buying LV equipment without a UL label. This doesn't mean I think the UL label is buying any additional quality, but it is just a fact of life that equipment must be labeled to pass inspection.
Medium-voltage metal-clad switchgear and large dry-type transformers must have UL labels also.
I'm in agreement with dpc. I'm in Canada, so if it's not CSA or one of the authorized equivalents, then it has to have a special inspection by the local authorities. (Cash grab) Inspector has the power to lock out my power unless it has the CSA sticker or equivalent.
- Thread starter
- #6
This has been my experience with UL and CSA inspectors as well. They do have an agreement that one is supposed to accept the others mark. I have had extensive conversations with both. However, they both agree that the inspectors can lockout a UL panel if it doesn't have CSA (CSA inspector). It is now, purely a political issue. As far as obtaining a UL508 listing of panels, this can be costly since the appropriate agency has to monitor the manufacturing for a while, at your expense.
My problem with the whole UL issue is their prices are going through the roof as well as their turn around time. Yes, there is 3rd parties but they still require a UL review of their data so the turn around time is often the same. The third parties are not much cheaper either, since UL has to review it, they still have to be paid. CSA on the other hand, has good turn around times and prices. Unfortunately, that doesn't do much good in the US, but it should be equivalent. CSA, however, does not look at plastics, whereas UL does. This includes enclosures. I wanted to develop a product but would not get UL or CSA on it right away, due to cost, but would be able to put CE on it (can self certify with CE-do own testing, etc). How marketable is a product in the US and Canada without UL or CSA mark but with CE? Probably not very marketable because of inspectors. CE is even more stringent than UL or CSA.
Gordon, You say it has to be equivalent to CSA, what would be an equivalent? A UL stamp? Is the acceptance of the 'equivalent' a given or will it depend on the inspector that comes that day? Thanks to all
My problem with the whole UL issue is their prices are going through the roof as well as their turn around time. Yes, there is 3rd parties but they still require a UL review of their data so the turn around time is often the same. The third parties are not much cheaper either, since UL has to review it, they still have to be paid. CSA on the other hand, has good turn around times and prices. Unfortunately, that doesn't do much good in the US, but it should be equivalent. CSA, however, does not look at plastics, whereas UL does. This includes enclosures. I wanted to develop a product but would not get UL or CSA on it right away, due to cost, but would be able to put CE on it (can self certify with CE-do own testing, etc). How marketable is a product in the US and Canada without UL or CSA mark but with CE? Probably not very marketable because of inspectors. CE is even more stringent than UL or CSA.
Gordon, You say it has to be equivalent to CSA, what would be an equivalent? A UL stamp? Is the acceptance of the 'equivalent' a given or will it depend on the inspector that comes that day? Thanks to all
A UL stamp is not equivalent, the stamp has to be ULC or UL with a small c beside to designate that it is tested by UL to CSA standrds. The same holds true for a number of the other "certification orginizations".
For large custom items it is quite common to get a special inspection from the local authority, but for a "mass" produced item I'm sure the cost would be prohibitive.
All of our purchase orders require CSA or equivalent, or special inspection at the vendors cost. I don't have a rule handy to back it up, by I think it is actually illegal to sell something without an approval.
For large custom items it is quite common to get a special inspection from the local authority, but for a "mass" produced item I'm sure the cost would be prohibitive.
All of our purchase orders require CSA or equivalent, or special inspection at the vendors cost. I don't have a rule handy to back it up, by I think it is actually illegal to sell something without an approval.
- Thread starter
- #8
Gordonl, I was referring to the cUL mark, sorry. Often when we submit things we automatically get cUL with the UL(so may have two seperate marks that are cUL and UL or the new mark is cULus). It is not illegal to sell motor controls without CSA or UL in the US or Canada. But try selling a motor controller without UL or CSA, the market requires the marking as most people in here have indicated.
The inspector your referring to that accepts cUL, is it a provincial inspector? I think CSA inspectors are more likely to accept a cUL mark in Canada than the US inspectors are to accept CSA.
The inspector your referring to that accepts cUL, is it a provincial inspector? I think CSA inspectors are more likely to accept a cUL mark in Canada than the US inspectors are to accept CSA.
In Alberta, it is illegal to sell or use electrical equipment are not approved by any of the approved certification agencies certified by the Standards Council of Canada. This is clearly stated in the Canadian Electrical Code and the Electrical Regulation. (I am sure other Provinces have similar regulations). The most known agency is CSA. UL is also recognized but the equipment must built and tested to Canadian standards (hence the small c to the left of the UL logo, cUL). A UL logo alone is not accepted. The key point here is the standard used. It must be a Canadian standard (although some standards have been harmonized, like low voltage fuses) and recognition by the Standards Council of Canada.
redtrumpet
Electrical
coolfish - there must be some special approval or inspection allowed in Alberta for items where no CSA certifcation standard exists. For example, have you ever seen a CSA certification label on a liquid-immersed power transformer? CSA C-88 is an engineering standard, not a certification standard.
redtrumpet
Electrical
Going back to buzz's original post, in Canada at least the minimum legal requirements are based on the Canadian Electrical Code and changes thereto contained in provincial statutes and amendments of local authorities.
Rule 2-024 of the CEC states electrical equipment shall be approved.
Approved as applied to electrical equipment is defined in Section 0 of the CEC as meaning, unless otherwise defined by the authority enforcing the Code, that such equipment has been submitted for examination and testing to an acceptable certification agency, that formal certification has been given to the agency to the effect that the equipment conforms to the appropriate CSA standards, and that the certification report has been adopted by not less than two-thirds of the Provincial Inspection Authorities.
In British Columbia, Directive No. 01/96 of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, Electrical and Elevating Devices Safety, further details the acceptance of electrical equipment over 750 volts.
Note 2 of the directive states in part "If it can be shown that no equipment certification program exists for a particular type of equipment, a special inspection label is acceptable."
Rule 2-024 of the CEC states electrical equipment shall be approved.
Approved as applied to electrical equipment is defined in Section 0 of the CEC as meaning, unless otherwise defined by the authority enforcing the Code, that such equipment has been submitted for examination and testing to an acceptable certification agency, that formal certification has been given to the agency to the effect that the equipment conforms to the appropriate CSA standards, and that the certification report has been adopted by not less than two-thirds of the Provincial Inspection Authorities.
In British Columbia, Directive No. 01/96 of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, Electrical and Elevating Devices Safety, further details the acceptance of electrical equipment over 750 volts.
Note 2 of the directive states in part "If it can be shown that no equipment certification program exists for a particular type of equipment, a special inspection label is acceptable."
Is is true that there is a 'Special Inspection' program accepted by the Authority Having Jurisdiction (which is not necessarily the Province or municipality). However, there are very few equipment where there no standards. While there is no such thing as an approved liquid-filled transformer, C88 or C9 does exists and is expected to be complied with. True, the product is not certified but still built to CSA standards.
In Alberta, there is a Province-wide variance (which has the effect of similar to a Code regulation) that accepts 'non-certified liquid filled transformers' provided they are built to CSA standards and the tests results prove it.
For other equipment, it is up to the Electrical Safety Codes Officer (equivalent to an Electrical Inspector) to make the call. One option is the Special Inspection program by CSA, Warnock-Hersey, Entela, and other certified agencies.
The definition of approved equipment, or any other Code rule for that matter, can be modified or changed by the Province.
In Alberta, there is a Province-wide variance (which has the effect of similar to a Code regulation) that accepts 'non-certified liquid filled transformers' provided they are built to CSA standards and the tests results prove it.
For other equipment, it is up to the Electrical Safety Codes Officer (equivalent to an Electrical Inspector) to make the call. One option is the Special Inspection program by CSA, Warnock-Hersey, Entela, and other certified agencies.
The definition of approved equipment, or any other Code rule for that matter, can be modified or changed by the Province.
- Thread starter
- #14
I am mostly referring to low voltage equipment. Seems some of you are referring to medium or high voltage. These have requirements that fall out of the scope of my knowledge. What few people know is CSA and UL both take direction from OSHA. OSHA is the hidden ruler of both agencies. In the US, I know for a fact, that low voltage equipment is not required by law, to have any safety agency approval. In Europe, it has to have CE (above 50 volts) and it appears that Canada has something similar to this in the books, or is this just for MV equipment(I believe it is)?
buzzp,
The laws governing electrical installations in the U.S. are local in nature. States and localities generally use the NEC as the basis for their codes, but are not required to. They also add additional restrictions and requirements as they see fit.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the necessity for UL or equivalent labeling is basically the law of the land here in Oregon, at least as a practical matter.
And as a P.E., I'd be nuts to knowingly permit use of something not UL-labeled when a UL-labeled alternative exists.
The laws governing electrical installations in the U.S. are local in nature. States and localities generally use the NEC as the basis for their codes, but are not required to. They also add additional restrictions and requirements as they see fit.
I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the necessity for UL or equivalent labeling is basically the law of the land here in Oregon, at least as a practical matter.
And as a P.E., I'd be nuts to knowingly permit use of something not UL-labeled when a UL-labeled alternative exists.
- Thread starter
- #16
dpc, I agree with you. My point was that it is NOT required by the law in general, but it is required by the market. There are many products designed around UL guidelines but do not have a UL label. But there is some comfort in having the UL label (avoid problems from inspectors, limit liability, etc).
Touching on another point that few realize: A UL listed product does not have any other requirements (at least from UL) to be listed whereas a UR(backwards R U), UL recognized, part does have additional requirements to be UL listed. This may include, for example, UL recognized fast on connectors or terminal blocks, and fusing (if spacing requirements are not met)
Touching on another point that few realize: A UL listed product does not have any other requirements (at least from UL) to be listed whereas a UR(backwards R U), UL recognized, part does have additional requirements to be UL listed. This may include, for example, UL recognized fast on connectors or terminal blocks, and fusing (if spacing requirements are not met)
- Thread starter
- #17
dpc, I agree with you. My point was that it is NOT required by the law in general, but it is required by the market. There are many products designed around UL guidelines but do not have a UL label. But there is some comfort in having the UL label (avoid problems from inspectors, limit liability, etc).
Touching on another point that few realize: A UL listed product does not have any other requirements (at least from UL) to be listed whereas a UR(backwards R U), UL recognized, part does have additional requirements to be UL listed. This may include, for example, UL recognized fast on connectors or terminal blocks, and fusing (if spacing requirements are not met on the PCB).
Touching on another point that few realize: A UL listed product does not have any other requirements (at least from UL) to be listed whereas a UR(backwards R U), UL recognized, part does have additional requirements to be UL listed. This may include, for example, UL recognized fast on connectors or terminal blocks, and fusing (if spacing requirements are not met on the PCB).
Hey I'm getting in way late on this conversation and everyone has pretty much said what there is to say. I just can't help but trying to answer the original question. I've worked for the agencies for the last 10 years.
It does depend on the inspector and their knowledge unfortunately. Most of the electrical standards for machinery for Europe and North America say the same thing. All critical components must be approved to their applicable design standard. The final system standards allow you to test a component if it's not approved, in it's final application. This is usually done with an agency who has already agreed upon accepting that information in place of the approved copmponent. Of course this is assuming you plan to provide final certification to the end system.
If you don't provide final system certification then you can't ship to Europe so that market could not be considered. If you ship to North America you take the chance of local Electrical Inspectors requireing Field Evaluation certification. That means that a NRTL (Natiopnally Reconized Testing Laboratory)must give their approval. Again this would close out this market if you did not have approved components. An Inspector if they're smart will not accept a critical component that has not been pretested.
One last thing both CSA and UL have an understanding, if only one mark appears on the system UL or CSA and you are working with someone at an agency who knows their stuff. They Can usually get the other agency to agree to accept the other mark with some minor verification. Christopher Caserta
ccaserta@enorthhampton.com
Ph:904-225-0360
It does depend on the inspector and their knowledge unfortunately. Most of the electrical standards for machinery for Europe and North America say the same thing. All critical components must be approved to their applicable design standard. The final system standards allow you to test a component if it's not approved, in it's final application. This is usually done with an agency who has already agreed upon accepting that information in place of the approved copmponent. Of course this is assuming you plan to provide final certification to the end system.
If you don't provide final system certification then you can't ship to Europe so that market could not be considered. If you ship to North America you take the chance of local Electrical Inspectors requireing Field Evaluation certification. That means that a NRTL (Natiopnally Reconized Testing Laboratory)must give their approval. Again this would close out this market if you did not have approved components. An Inspector if they're smart will not accept a critical component that has not been pretested.
One last thing both CSA and UL have an understanding, if only one mark appears on the system UL or CSA and you are working with someone at an agency who knows their stuff. They Can usually get the other agency to agree to accept the other mark with some minor verification. Christopher Caserta
ccaserta@enorthhampton.com
Ph:904-225-0360
- Thread starter
- #19
Chris, In the field, it is up to the UL inspector to accept a CSA product(I believe this is what you were saying using different words). You can get both marks on the product if you tell them at the very beginning (at least UL). Then they can send there testing list to the other for approval and/or additional tests to satisfy the other agencies requirements and correpsond with each other during the process. This is more economical if done at the beginning. Thanks for the input and I agree with everyone thing you stated. Buzzp
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