Salary and poor negotiation 3

[tickle]

My company has a quite rigid pay structure for the graduates and young engineers. However, as the experience levels increase, so do the salary bands.

My problem is that I recently moved companies and received a pay increase. At the time I was happy with the figure and did little to negotiate. However, other people have started at the same level as me with similar experience, who obviously negotiated harder and are on a bigger salary. Therefore, due to my lack of negotiating skill/effort I am on a lower salary; less than my worth, less than the market price and less than the employer can afford.

I have raised the issue at the annual review, but was told basically that the annual pay rises followed a structure that would not be broken without extenuating circumstances, or me proving myself as the best thing since sliced bread. The pay rises came and went and I got the standard across the board departmental (office?) percentage increase.

At the end of the day, I am on a very good salary in comparison to the general population. I can survive, relatively easily and if I did not know that peers were on more I would be more than happy. But I do know and feel ripped off.

Should I sit there doing the same work as these other people who are earning 10% + more than me, knowing that I will never close the gap? Should I go get on my horse? Should I make threats that I will leave (either veiled or direct)? Or should I just keep stating that I am unhappy and hope for the best?

All the best

Tickle

 

[jmw]

That's life.

The one and only time you really get to negotiate salary is when changing jobs.
Once you are in, they've got you... for a while i.e. till you change jobs again.

Of course, its never a nice feeling to know you've not done as well as you should have but learn from it.

Come to think of it, if your first job paid so badly that this job looked good, you had better get this sorted out or you'll spend your life underpaid.
Life time loss of earnings? do the math.

Sadly, you could be the best thing since sliced bread and you'll have hard job agreeing a definition with them.

Next job change, better make it soon, do some research and play hard ball. You have a job right now so you can afford to try it out a few times, apply for jobs and play tough at the interview, they can only say no.
By the way, did you look for this job because of poor pay at the last? were you under some pressure to get this one for any reason?

Incidentally, notice that the guys who get promotion and the big salaries are being promoted to where they can't do any harm, this whole thing about being sliced bread is a con.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[PSE]

Make threats about leaving? Not unless you have another position already waiting in the wings (could you afford for your employer to call you on a bluff), and you will have effectively burned any bridges where you are now. If you like what you are doing, you might be better off leaving for a year or two and then returning with "broader" knowledge. You could potentially leapfrog over your peers.

Ignorance can be bliss. You were satisfied with your salary until you found out (if you truly found out) what your peers made. I don't begrudge any salary that my peers have and don't concern myself with how I compare. What I do concern myself with is how well meshed my personal and financial goals are. If an opportunity arises that looks interesting and enhances my compensation, certainly I will consider it but once I make that choice, I live with it (mostly without complaint) until the next opportunity arises.

Regards

 

[TheTick]

Also another illustration of why it's bad form to discuss your salary with your peers. Hard lesson. Raises are based on where you start, so you need to start as high as you can. You're pretty well stuck.

You don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate.

I do know someone who has broken the "raise limit" three times in his career. Bosses thought highly enough of him to fight for more money. Rare exception, though.

 

[csd72]

I once fell into that trap of comparing my salary to that of others.

My advice to you is dont!

You considered the rate sufficient at the time so what has changed now - the only thing that has changed is that you know others are earning more.

You need to just accept it and just learn from it. Next time negotiate harder - if you dont ask you dont get.

It is human nature though as research has shown that people would be happier having the best house in the worst street rather than the worst house in the best street.

 

[Gymmeh]

If the job is paying your Bills and your learning, don’t worry about it, don't stress what you cant change.

Have you considered all your benefits, it may make you feel better to take some classes on the company, join the gym, or getting the max from your company out your 401k. Talk to HR about any possible programs they may have, that people don’t know about. All of this equates to money and you may get a little satisfaction of getting some more out of your boss.

As others have said, you can just use this job and use your position to negotiate what you want at another job.

 

[KENAT]

Ask your manager what you would have to do to get an above the curve pay raise. If he can give you a sensible answer and you can do it, then go for it. If not, start looking elsewhere.

No point making empty threats in case they call your bluff.

Comparing you pay to others around you will usually lead to grief. I found out what a couple of others in this office earn unintentionally and wish I hadn't.

If you're a religious person, of the Christian persuasion, there is a parable about just this situation.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[MadMango]

Discussing your pay with co-workers is a no-no. Some good can come of it though, as it prodded me to leave my last job for a much better environment.

If you do talk with your manager, try to get quantifiable tasks to try to reach. Being better than sliced bread is relative and opinionated. Realize there is probably nothing you can do now, except improve your situation for the next review cycle. This would include keeping a log of your daily or at least weekly activities and accomplishments. When it's time for them to ask "what have you done for me lately" you will be able to reply without forgetting anything in order to justify a decent raise.

Don't say/threaten/hint you are going to leave unless you already have an offer of employment (that you will take) and you are willing to entertain a counter-offer by your current employer.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[ctopher]

Don't negotiate pay with current employer until review time, and only if you have been doing an outstanding job.
I negotiated my pay during the hiring process and came close to what I was asking for.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated 10-07-07)

 

[tickle]

Thanks to one and all.

The way I found out about the salary scales was by preparing proposals for people and finding out the individual charge out rates. I would be none the wiser if the company charged out its engineers based on position and not salary.

The move from my previous job was for career development reasons, and in the most part (if at all) I do not regret the move. The jump in salary was the icing on the cake.

Tickle

 

[Gymmeh]

For the engineering charges, did it actually say a persons salary/hourly or did it say something like $90- $150?

I know my engineering charge out rate to a job is like 4 or 5 times my actaully hourly pay.

 

[graybeach]

tickle,
I had a similar experience working on a proposal at a former job. I found out that one of the most worst engineers I had ever worked with made $4 an hour more than me. In might have been because he had a PhD, but man, he was scary bad. I brought it up at my next review apologizing that I could not help but find out as I was working on a proposal. I definitely think I got a higher raise than I would have. I ended up leaving that job eventually and negotiated harder at my next job. The PhD guy ended up taking a position as a university professor - eek!
I echo the advice of others - do your best and do not worry too much about your salary. Instead of comparing yourself to others at your company, compare yourself to the market. If your market value gets much higher than your salary, your company will have to give you more if they want to keep you.

 

[ykee]

If you do negotiate a higher salary at your next review, watch out for the bonus trap -- ie: you did so well last year, we'll give you a fat bonus, but still only give you a raise within company guidelines.
My advice: get targets on what you can do to be bumped into the next salary band.

 

[abeltio]

Fortunately: it is seller's market for engineers now - if you are good at what you do, companies are starving for good engineering types.

I would secure a tempting job offer elsewhere, and tell my current employer the ABSOLUTE TRUTH:
- I do have a very tempting offer to go, but would hate to do it just for financial reasons. Like the company, like the team, like the job. Have three weeks to make a decision so if we can reach a new agreement I will decline the other offer.

As some others wisely advised: never bluff.

In fact: Show you were not bluffing, if you reach a new agreement don't be shy to print out the offer, cross out contact information from the other company, and let your manager read it right in front of you, no possibility of making copies, keep that printout and destroy it at home.

Maybe you guessed it: This is a true story.

Cheers.
a.

saludos.
a.

 

[MedicineEng]

As a professor once told me:
If you want to start a war, go to an airport lounge and ask to each person out loud how much did they paid for their tickets...

 

[uGlay]

The biggest raises I ever got was when I switched jobs. If you can manage to be happy with what you make and love your job then stay, but if that bug is going to eat at you slowly from within then take your time and start looking. If you are as good as you say you are, you will most likely land a job that could give you a substantial pay increase if you play your cards right.