second floor joist supported by bricks nogging in balloon framing

[alphabeta2020]

all the questions pertain the second floor level
My house is
semi-detached 2 story 1920 house (each side is approx 18 feet wide ) .

vertical stud(2×4 @16) is balloon framing ( from basement to attic its one continuous piece ) and brick are placed in the cavity { this is called brick nogging }

second floor joist (2×8) nailed to the side of the vertical stud (balloon framing) is continuous thru party wall all the way to other side of neighbors exterior wall( one piece of approx 38 feet in length)

There is no ledger board (ribbon) to support the joists at common 2×4 stud { only nails and brick}

the second floor joist is nailed to the vertical stud and has redundant support by the bricks that are filled in between the studs
Brick nogging are by definition non- load bearing but in my situation, If the nails fails it will picked up by brick infill . The horizontal joist are supposed by nails to side of vertical and they are also supported on bricks .

Has one encountered this situation ?
in particular
* horizontal floor joist been the same joist – One piece from exterior side wall at my house to exterior side wall of my neighbors house
* second floor joist is supported by nails and also by bricks

Here is a picture

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MpE4AToVMDyYrDF19

Thanks

 

[jayrod12]

If there are enough nails to be sufficient for the loads, how is it any different than a ledger nailed to the face of the balloon framing? In each scenario you're relying on nails in shear. It's just whether the number of nails you have is sufficient. The overlap area of a 2x8 to a 2x4 likely only gives enough space for 6 nails. but perhaps that's sufficient.

 

[DoubleStud]

Your post does not contain any question other than if one has encountered this before. No I have not encountered this before. Hire a structural engineer that can visit the site to truly understand what is going on.

 

[RPGs]

To answer your question: I've seen plenty of balloon framed houses and even more houses with pocketed (or nogged as you call it--never heard of that) joists on mutli-wythe brick.

I personally haven't seen any with continuous floor joists shared by two units, especially if each unit is 18 ft wide as you said.

 

[alphabeta2020]

All, thanks for your input

thanks for your input , you are right only way to know for sure is opening up the sheet rock

This house was built in 1920. pictures on the shared link i provided are from from 2016 from a non-structural renovation.

Some of the pictures i had taken in 2016 are missing from my google drive. now i am basically figuring out the puzzle with information i have.

certain things are driving me crazy :

the biggest 2 questions i have:

question 1)

why don't I see my neighbors floor joist? ( NOTE : i *do* see my neighbors ceiling joist sticking in my side of the semi-detached house a few inches; they are staggered and resting perpendicular on top of 2 top plates of the party wall in the attic)

My own to answer 1 : because the second *Floor* joists are in same plane (they are not slightly staggered) : Hence my conclusion it is a continuous 1 piece joist 38 feet joist.

here is similar case study (his condition is similar to mine)

case study

https://www.diychatroom.com/threads/floor-joist-going-through-party-wall.127449/

question 2) given my second floor joist are not staggered - and that they are in lined up with my neighbor joist . what then are the possibilities
then , given the small space for nailing { if each joist is nailed to the 4 inch wide stud- that would be only leave 2 inches of joist projection
and 1 inch of edge distance,

question 3) Why did the builder not have a ledger board (also called a ribbon) which in balloon framing is the typical condition?.

my own answer: in the usual case the load from the joist is shared because the ribbon (which is "let in" with stud) and the nails .

in my case i dont have a ledger board(ribbon ) , i do have a brick wall in the cavity of the studs. I do have a brick nogging infill, which the joist is resting on , so the brick can take the load if required. the nails are taking the load without the help of a ledger . the nails are taken the load and if needed the brick wall can help . however if the original builder left a gap in the brick wall and the joist, that wouldnt be ideal.

Ref:

https://www.google.com/books/editio...d+balloon+framing&pg=PA49&printsec=frontcover

According to this book , has some info..


RPG: yes, i agree mine is pocketed, however in my case it is to a single wythe wall. { this guy also had a single whythe brick:

https://www.diychatroom.com/threads/loose-brick-party-wall.650661/

) and he also believes his joist right though the party wall

Thanks again

 

[RPGs]

It's very difficult to answer your questions with more certainty without looking at it in person. If you have concerns you should hire a licensed engineer to perform an evaluation.

Question 1) I suppose anything is possible, but I'd be genuinely surprised to see that. From a strength standpoint, having the joists be continuous isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but the tradeoff is loading from the opposite span can be felt in the other unit, as noted in that thread you posted.

Question 2) The single-shear face-nailing of joists to balloon studs does typically need a closer look to make sure it's safe. If the joists are also pocketed in a backup layer of brick then that's an improvement, for the redundancy, as long as the joist has solid bearing on the masonry in the pocket as you said.

Question 3) I've seen balloon framing without a let-in ribbon. As far as why that's the case with this building--you'd have to ask the builder.

 

[gte447f]

alphabeta2020, what's your question? You've asked a few, but your questions are really just observations and wondering why did someone do this or that 100 years ago. Are you concerned that the structure is deficient or unsafe? If so, why? Are you attempting to modify the structure? Are you just curious about construction methods and trying to teach yourself? You say things like, you have 38 feet 2x8s that are continuous across 2 houses, but now you seem to have revised that observation to 2 separate spans of 19 feet 2x8s that are not staggered. You are asking us to go down a rabbit hole with you. Get better information and ask better questions.