Shipping Liquid Hydrogen Would Be At Least 5 Times As Expensive As LNG Per Unit Of Energy... ?????? 2

[MJCronin]

What do you think ?

Is a Hydrogen based energy infrastucture in our future ?

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/2...times-as-expensive-as-lng-per-unit-of-energy/

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[SnTMan]

Sounds about right to me. What I have read says that moving hydrogen around by whatever means is a loser.

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[GregLocock]

That's why reformulating it as methane or ammonia is being proposed.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[SnTMan]

But, but, but methane bad...

LOL

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[BrianPetersen]

One of many reasons why hydrogen is the fuel of the future, and always will be.

The energy that it takes to liquefy hydrogen is a significant fraction (IIRC ~30%) of its chemical energy content, and (with possibly some rare exceptions) you don't get it back at the point of use.

Thermodynamically, it's a complete loser.

There will no doubt be some applications for it, but only where absolutely nothing else will work.

 

[SnTMan]

Brian Peterson, that's what they said about electric cars. Still not sure which way that's going...


The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[SnTMan]

The only thing that seems make sense to me is to produce hydrogen with solar and / or wind power that would otherwise be wasted and then use it onsite


The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[LittleInch]

Interesting analysis.

Basically liquid Hydrogen is 6 times lighter / less dens than LNG. But its HHV is about 3 times more per kg.

So m3 liquid to m3LNG hydrogen is about half the energy. Making the ships twice as big doesn't sound like a good plan, but they could be a bit bigger.

I wonder if anyone has calculated what it would take to store batteries on a ship, charge them up then sail them??
There is a lot of time and effort going into this at the moment, so whilst pure LH doesn't look good compared to LNG, there are many alternatives.


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[rb1957]

methane is bad if it leaks into the atmosphere, which is almost certain to happen.

ammonia is a good medium to transport hydrogen, the cost for this benefit is extra processing.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[rb1957]

I was surprised that this would be reported by a "clean energy" media site. My take away is that renewable energys view themselves as their own worst enemy ... "solar power is stupid" say the wind farms, "wind power, phhtt" say the solar, "nuclear ??" say both solar and wind, etc.

I did like the last sentence ...
"All of the projects proposing to manufacture hydrogen where sunshine and wind are constant and cheap, and ship it to where energy is consumed, are clearly based on hand-waving, ignorance, sheer #hopium or outright larceny."

words to live by ... "clearly based on hand-waving, ignorance, sheer #hopium or outright larceny."

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[SnTMan]

rb1957. I was surprised by that too. Just look at some of other articles. #hopium for sure...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

"clearly based on hand-waving, ignorance, sheer #hopium or outright larceny."

Ha ha, you're describing the company I am contracted to and my daily work life ... if I told you where that is you'd fall off your chair, right after your jaw dropped off. (On the plus side, they are doing magnificently when it comes to enforcing diversity solutions and right thinking.)

To get back to the OP, no I do not have hy hopes.



"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[hokie66]

I'll use that word.

 

Feel free to steal ... my rationale is that if government can do it, why not us proles?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[JoshPlumSE]

One of many reasons why hydrogen is the fuel of the future, and always will be.

You have a quicker wit than I do.... LOL. I had to read your post a number of times before I understood it. Once I detected the humor / sarcasm, I genuinely chuckled out loud. Partly at your joke, partly at my slowness in catching on.

The only thing that seems make sense to me is to produce hydrogen with solar and / or wind power that would otherwise be wasted and then use it onsite

Yes, that could make sense.... to address the lag or gaps in the supply vs demand curves of wind and solar.

 

[IRstuff]

The liquefaction of hydrogen is expensive, energy-wise, but maintenance of the equipment that does that is also expensive, given the temperature required to do liquefaction. I would think that it has to run 24/7, since any downtime could allow temperature to rise, which requires additional energy to cool the tanks back down. The heat loss would be about 3x for the same amount of insulation, so that's another thing to deal with for storage.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[SnTMan]

Plus boil off

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

Thanks for the photo MJC,

I think I can just about make of the name on the stern .... S-S H-I-N-D-E-N-B-U-R-G
Am I reading it right?

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[EdStainless]

A bulk hydrogen transport ship should use the boil off in either turbines or fuel cells to power the ship.
Storage isn't that mad.
I have used bulk LH all of my carrier and found vacuum tanks of offer very low boil off rates.
Getting vaporized for use is the pain, unless you have a good use for the coldness.
I agree though, make it on site with excess solar/wind and use it in process or for peeking power.
If you need to transport energy then something with higher density is needed.

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[TugboatEng]

LNG ships used to use the boil off to fuel their boilers for propulsion. Modern LNG tankers have reliquification plants and burn fuel oil in diesel engines for propulsion.

Propulsion demands exceeded required boil-off. Economics drove the move away from boil-off for fuel.