siphoning water

[Festusmwangi]

is it possible to siphon water uphill by placing a 40 gallon tank (air tight)on a higher place between inlet and outlet.pipe from the inlet is connected at the top and pipe to the outlet connected at the base? is this workable?

 

[BigInch]

Yes to a certain extent. You might succeed with an appropriate means to create a vacuum to initiate the siphon. Although the maximum height is theoretically 33.9 feet at sea level, you will probably find there are other practical limitations, such as drawing a good enough vacuum, that will not allow you to siphon that high above the water supply's surface level.

What would you be doing, if you knew that you could not fail? Ans. Gov lobbyist.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I didn't think this is possible - but BigInch could be right. The idea of a siphon is to use the weight of the water to "pull" water of the same weight down hill in a controlled manner.

To go up hill - they generally use a pump.

Now - there is a "pump" used on farms for many years that used flowing water to move a portion of that water up hill. Had some kind of "hammer" cylinder in it - I think. Don't remember name or type of pump - but still used. Not very powerful - but over a day's time - could move a rather large amount of water. And didn't require electricity or gas and didn't need to be monitored - run all day or all week w/o a problem.

 

[bimr]

Trying to invent a perpetual motion machine again?

This is a ridiculous concept and it will not work. The outlet of a siphon has to be lower than the source, you can't siphon water from the ocean, then drop it above.

Adding the 40 gallon tank just turns it into a shaggy dog story. The 40 gallon tank is just a wide spot in the line and irrelevant to operation of the siphon.

For the siphon to continue to operate, gravity must have a larger effect on the outlet. If it takes more force to lift water up than to pull water down than the outlet is too high

Because of friction and other energy lossed, all water lifting devices such as water wheels still need an excess of energy above the amount of energy that is necessary to lift the water.

http://www.aermotorwindmill.com/Links/Education/Education2.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_wheel

 

[Latexman]

siphon,

A sketch may help us understand.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[1gibson]

Mike, you are thinking of a "hydraulic ram" or "ram jet" pump

First link I came across:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Worlds-greenest-water-pump/

Requires constant water flow so not applicable unless you have a stream/river.

 

[BigInch]

I will withdraw what I said. I did not understand the question, primarily because Mr Siphon does not know himself what a siphon is. A siphon obviously must have the outlet to the system below the supply water's level.

What would you be doing, if you knew that you could not fail? Ans. Gov lobbyist.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

1gibson - In the word of Ed McMann - "YOU ARE CORRECT!!"

 

[IRstuff]

Sounds like he wants to use the water in the tank as a pumping mechanism. I think the head pressure limitation does apply to what he appears to be asking. However, there are additional factors like sizing of the inlet and outlet piping.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Nothing is free - especially pushing (pumping) water up stream!! Or we wouldn't need electricity, gasoline, nuclear power, etc.

 

[IRstuff]

This isn't free; you need to fill the tank in the first place, which is where all the potential energy is stored. So long as "uphill" is less than 33.9 ft, then there's no violation of physical law.

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[bimr]

Think about it. The tank is a red herring. Does it matter if the tank is 40 gallons, 4 gallons, or whatever?

This is not about water head in the tank. The tank will function as a conduit not as a reservoir.

Mr Siphon seems to think that merely connecting to a tank at the bottom or top will cause the flow to reverse:

"pipe from the inlet is connected at the top [of the tank] and pipe to the outlet connected at the base [of the tank]"

Imagine that you have a siphon (including the tank) completely filled with water and valved at both ends. What happens when open both valves at the same time?

In all siphons, water always flows downhill.

Mr Siphon wants one to flow uphill.

 

[ione]

I agree the outlet of the siphon must be below the supply water's level (how couldn't I?), but I've found this interesting article about water "travelling" uphill.

http://www.lehigh.edu/~mkc4/our papers/Drop on Gradient_science.pdf

 

[Festusmwangi]

Thank you all for your input.

 

[Latexman]

It will not work. The outlet is higher in elevation than inlet.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[bimr]

It would help if you put elevations on the drawing.

If you are trying to siphon the well over the hill, the answer is no. Your sketch shows the water well being at a lower elevation than the outlet gate valve. This also assumes that the well water does not have pressure (artesian well).

If you filled the entire system and then opened both valves, water will siphon into the well. The siphon will continue until air enters from the tank bottom connection and breaks the siphon effect. At that point, the tank contents will then drain to the outlet.

The system drains to the well because the water pressure at the outlet gate valve is less than the water pressure in the well by the difference in elevation. The tank elevation is not important, it is the pressures in the piping at the outlet connections.

This is why civil engineers construct tanks on elevated ground. The lower the elevation is away from the tank, the greater the water pressure.

The weight of water will always cause the water to flow downward. Water always flows to the lowest elevation.

http://images.ask.com/fr?q=Diagram-of-an-Artesian-Well&desturi=http://

http://www.agualacotorra.com/sobre2...ge%3D1%26o%3D102140%26l%3Ddir%26pstart%3D&qt=