Solenoid valve for domestic shut off for 13R system?

[RainbowFS]

I am doing a 13R sprinkler system in an 8 unit motel. The water supply is 1 1/2" for both domestic and fire.
The only available spring loaded automatic domestic shutoff valve is a 1" size. I need more supply than that.
It was suggested to me that a solenoid control valve could serve the same function.
There are a wealth of possibilities with this, which is where I am unsure of how to design this. The most obvious idea has been to place the solenoid valve in the domestic line and have it shut off with a signal from a flow switch on the sprinkler line.
I have to choose: normally open, normally closed, 24V, 120V, 12VDC, and many more.
Should the solenoid be at rest (not energized) and then close with the flow switch signal? Or should the solenoid be held open constantly and close when the sprinklers flow or if the power goes out? This would likely be 120V powered, same as the local alarm bell.
Is this sort of arrangement even acceptable?

 

[NJ1]

That application seems to be quite tricky. What are looking to do? The function of a solenoid is to allow the water to flow in the system when activated. If you want automatic shut off then that solenoid needs to be inter phase with an active alarm system that can recognize a reset command, other than that I really do not understand the use.
Also why the flow switch? How many sprinklers we are talking about in total?
As far as being acceptable just ask your local fire official because they make the last judgment. Bit of advice, always leave it to the AHJ

 

[MGXFP]

Can you not use a regular Cla-Val type shutoff switch?

 

[RainbowFS]

I certainly know about AHJ's and the final word on approvals. While I have long experience in Comm/Ind sprinkler systems I've mostly avoided residential systems because of issues like this. I'm just not familiar enough with them and I (still) have a strong resistance to the concept of fire protection through plastic pipe. But I took this project on for a friend...
The solenoid set-up sounds wacky to me too, but it was suggested by one of my biggest suppliers, so I was just doing some cursory investigation.
To further show my ignorance, right now I have no idea what a Cla-Val shutoff switch is. But I will soon. Thanks for responding.



Alex Traw
Rainbow Fire Sprinklers
Albany, Oregon

 

[ryano669]

1. Run 1½" into the valve and decrease /increase on both sides, using the appropriate friction loss for the valve.

or

2. Separate the two into respective systems and add the domestic demand to your calcs at the intersection point. Usually you can get an estimate for the demand from the Mechanical Engineer.

 

[stookeyfpe]

Why would you consider using a valve that could fail in the closed position sometime during its service life? Second, NFPA 13R, Section 5.2.12.1.2 requires the installation of listed indicating valves. I've never seen a listed indicating solenoid valve. That's not say they are not available - I've never seen one.

 

[FFP1]

I am not certain, but I think he plans to place the normally open solenoid valve on the domestic supply (just downstream of the feed to the fire system) and arrange the fire system water flow switch to automatically shut off any water flow to the domestic system.

Most NFPA 13R combined systems include the domestic usage with the fire system demand when completing the calcs (which eliminates the need for a solenoid valve). I have never seen anyone use a solenoid valve in this manner AND I am not sure whether or not this approach is acceptable based on NFPA 13R.

You need to research the applicable NFPA 13R standards.

 

[RainbowFS]

"Usually you can get an estimate for the demand from the Mechanical Engineer." That would be nice, if there was one.

This motel is up in the mountians at a fishing resort, as far from the county seat (and AHJ) as you can get. Some of the oversight seems to have been lax. Lax until I put in my deferred submittal that is. I'm not complaining, because I want to put in a good system. My current frustration is the the hassle I'm having getting key information I need in order to run my calcs. Little stuff like water flow, the size and location of the supply, for example.
So I'm dead in the water for now.

Alex Traw
Rainbow Fire Sprinklers
Albany, Oregon

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Used to be there were 1" and 2" diversion valves that were specifically listed for 13R systems but I can't find them now that I am looking.

There's the Tyco Model F540, Residential Domestic Shutoff Valve

http://www.tyco-fire.com/index.php?P=show&BK=Search&id=Residential&CP=10

but I wouldn't use it until I saw it was specifically listed for 13R.

Have you looked at a self contained water supply that is listed for 13R? Generally run between $2,000 and $3,000 it would get you out of the problem with a water supply you know nothing about.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

I couldn't sleep until I found it!

Model RSV-1 Residential Domestic Shutoff Valve 1 and 2 Inch (DN25 and DN50)
For Dual Purpose Residential Water Supply

http://www.tc-vp.com/TFP980_01_2006.pdf

Approvals
The 1 inch (DN25) Model RSV-1 Residential Domestic Shutoff Valve is UL and ULC Listed and is suitable for use in water supply arrangements for residential fire sprinkler systems designed per NFPA 13D.

The 2 inch (DN50) Model RSV-1 Residential Domestic Shutoff Valve is UL and C-UL Listed and is suitable for use in water supply arrangements for residential fire sprinkler systems designed per NFPA 13D or 13R.

 

[RainbowFS]

I should have mentioned the RSV-1 before. I am aware of it and would like to use it but I it may limit the flow too much. Unfortunately, the RSV-2 was discontinued in 2006.
I had originally had two sprinklers flowing in the most distant (remote) compartment, but there are three heads in one room right next to the riser, 261 sq. ft., so I have to use it, according to the plans examiner. So I basically need 45gpm, which I doubt I can get through the RSV-1

Alex Traw
Rainbow Fire Sprinklers
Albany, Oregon

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

RainbowFS,

That the RSV-2 was discontinued in 2006 shows how long it's been since I used one.

Why 3 heads? Maybe you can get a single head to cover the 261 sq ft. compartment? What's the dimension of the compartment?

 

[RainbowFS]

SD2, I can't thank you enough for your input.

I've got a 19 x 12 area with a 6/12 slope and then a 3 x 11 flat section off the low end.

I just got some numbers from the water system, stat- 60, res- 55, flowing 70 gpm through a 2" service.
Then there is approx. 50 ft of 2" underground with three elbows to the bldg.
I just got back to the office and this is my focus for the rest of the day.

Alex Traw
Rainbow Fire Sprinklers
Albany, Oregon

 

[carlosgw]

I have a similar situation. A building with a 550 foot 2" service and a 80 GPM domestic demand. It is marginal with only the domestic or the sprinkler (which is 13R). Obviously it would not work with both. What I was thinking of is a normally closed solenoid valve on the domestic service which would close if the sprinkler flow switch were activated. The question is - do I need a listed valve and is there one available?

 

[RainbowFS]

In my research I failed to find a solenoid valve that was listed, or NFPA certified, or used any language to that effect. At the same time the webpages I looked at were pitching them as fire sprinkler valves. So, I'm not really sure. I abandoned the idea early.
I was able to add the domestic with the fire demand and make the hydraulics work.

Alex Traw
Rainbow Fire Sprinklers
Albany, Oregon

 

[carlosgw]

Auto-shutoff valve for domestic water - does it need to be listed. NFPA 13 is pretty clear but NFPA 13R is a little hazy. If there is nothing listed for a device does thatmean it can not be used.
The valve would be outisde the sprinkler flow but required for design sprinkler operation. I have found nothing listed or any indication that anyone would test something for this use to get a lsiting.