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Sound engineering practice vessels and piping 5

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Welder150

Industrial
Oct 23, 2021
4
Hello this is my first post on the site. Lots of good information on here .
My question is what procedures does my shop need to follow to manufacture vessels and piping that fall under (sep)

Is there an area that can explain what I need to do to get my shop certified to do this? Will I need to hire an engineer? The company I will be building these for have a full engineering team and they submit the drawing to me for fabrication .
Any help
Would be much appreciated thanks in advance
 
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Where are you located geographically and in what State and country will the pressure vessels be installed ?

Quality Pressure Vessels, legally, require far more than so called "sound engineering practices" ... the law comes into play here ...

In most Western counties, the design, fabrication, inspection and sales of pressure vessels must be performed by a certified shop.

Welders must be individually identified and certified to the specific PV code requirements

Materials of construction must also be certified. The shop must carefully segregate code and non-code materials

Importantly, records must be kept and a numbered "ASME code plate" or similar certificate is attached to each inspected vessel. PV records are often also demanded bt the state or country of installation

In the USA, the governing Code for unfired PVs is often ASME Section VIII ---- another section of the ASME code is used for boilers

Outside of the USA, there are other similar pressure vessel standards..


More good information about ASME Pressure Vessels here:



MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
 
Yes I’m in bc. These will be getting sold to the EU . The customer does not require asme or ce for these items . They just have a request for “SEP” .
 
IMHO, SEP is usually NFG for most customers ...

Good Luck, Welder150 ....

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
 
Ok thanks . It’s just all the customer requires for these projects .

Just wanted to see what the steps are to get them sep certified
 
PED-user here with some experience in multiple SEP-discussions. What’s NFG?

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.
 
Will take a stab in the dark and say No ........... good !
Am I close ?
 
Geoff13 gives good advice...

The "Technical Safety BC" website is wonderful, informative and well designed. British Columbia should be proud of such organization and an important contribution to public safety. The website owners are mindful of public welfare and aware of the power of the internet to inform and enrich the pursuit of safety..... I wish that each of the United States had such easy-to-use and informative websites ....

But they don't,... and they won't

For decades on eng-tips there have been questions regarding the design, fabrication, inspection, sales and re-use of Boilers and Pressure Vessels. One by one all questions have been addressed and answered ..... Sometimes with the wrong answer, IMHO. Confusion is promoted

The American system of regulation falls down when it deliberately makes safety rules confusing and obscure .... It will not change because change would take away work from lawyers. Just to remind you all lawyers come from hell and are the spawn of SATAN ...

In other words, once again, Canada has got it right and shows up the USA ...

An excerpt from the "Technical Safety BC" website:

[i]Professional engineers involved with the design of regulated equipment are required to authenticate a design that reliably demonstrates that engineered safety considerations, professional accountability, and professional reliance were exercised as part of the design development.

The qualified professional must have evaluated the design with recognized and generally accepted, good engineering practices, along with our safety standards. All Licensed Professional Engineers will be required to sign off on the Qualified Professional Declaration of each application.[/i]


As I read it, the client's lawyers will soon send you a letter telling you that "sound engineering practices" include conformance to established Standards and Codes .... and Professional Engineer Certification.

Once again, .... for the thousandth time ... we all suffer because of a confused and/or inexperienced client

The attorney letter will arrive just after you order all uncertified materials and hire a brand new group of 17 year old STEM welders .....

Please keep us posted about your long journey on this sad path.. Tell us of your final decision on certification

My morning medications have just begun to kick in and I am on my fourth iced coffee...

And, by the way NFG means just what you think it does ....

It may also be a military acronym, but is a well-used construction term..... and means "No F*cking Good"



MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer
 
Guys, please bear in mind that overseas we also have a world. Not all is dominated by US or Canadian regulations.

For SEP, i would go with either ASME VIII div 1, or dive into EN 13445. The latter also has a provision for ‘SEP’-equipment.

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.
 
NFG I knew. SEP is new to me. Couldn't identify it thru Google. What is it?

Regards,

Mike

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
 
Sound Engineering Practice, a term that’s used by the PED for something subject article 4, para 3. No member state, afaik, has ever defined SEP (under the PED). for their nations law.

Huub
- You never get what you expect, you only get what you inspect.
 
A couple of thoughts for you-
One, there are some exemptions from the ASME vessel code based on size, pressure, usage, etc., and I assume similar under other codes. Based on your information, it may be that the products involved fall entirely under those exemptions, and that would explain why there is not more formality involved.
Secondly, the situation occasionally arises where purchasers do not think they need this or that stamp and are simply wrong- in the US, the state may require the stamp even if the customer doesn't, or the customer's insurance may require it or OSHA may require it, etc.
Lastly, on the hire-an-engineer question- you need to confirm very clearly with the purchaser/designer who is responsible for what, exactly.
It would be reasonable, even if the customer does all the actual design, that you would need to qualify welders per the codes involved, have weld procedures per the codes involved, etc. You may already have that, but if not, some time and money is involved there. If your company will be the stamp holder, you'll come up with various costs and fees for approvals, test vessel, do or pay for inspections, come up with a suitable QC plan, etc.
 
What in the mother of God is "Sound Engineering Practice" when it comes to Pressure vessels?

Surely it must still fall under a design code or standard, be it ASME VIII or EN 13445

This post implies it's still an ASME VIII vessel?
Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
For the European PED they define different categories of vessels based on volume and pressure. Anything falling under the chart becomes "SEP" - in the past when I worked with SEP we designed to ASME BPVC VIII-1 as it was a shell/tube heat exchanger we already had ASME and CRN certified designs for. It was mostly an exercise in paperwork and writing up a letter to have our engineering lead sign to self-certify.

As far as I'm aware an SEP vessel is entirely between the customer and builder as to any design agreements, codes of construction, paperwork, etc.

Below 200bar and 50L where "Article 43" is shown in red is SEP.

graphique-Gaz-Dangereux_wlp3wi.jpg
 
Thanks for all your response everyone .
Yes the customer is aware of the difference between asme and sep certification . They have another category of there facility that uses CE and Asme certified vessels and piping .

Rputvin when you did you SEP . Who did you go threw for the certification or to find out what paperwork ect you need along with name plate requirements.

Again I appreciate all your feed back
 
Welder150 said:
Yes the customer is aware of the difference between asme and sep certification . They have another category of there facility that uses CE and Asme certified vessels and piping .

Rputvin when you did you SEP . Who did you go threw for the certification or to find out what paperwork ect you need along with name plate requirements.

Again I appreciate all your feed back

This was some years back for me, I know the CE directives have gone through a bit of an overhaul in the time since, notified bodies are more involved, the technical data file requirements are different - I think that was part of the 2016 changes that went into effect in 2018, but I don't keep current on this stuff anymore and we offload European/CE requirements where I work now (or perhaps the smarter move- avoid them entirely).

I've always found it difficult working to European standards in the USA - no one here has the knowledge to navigate this stuff, and consulting agencies that do know this stuff want a hefty sum just to start looking at your issue to provide guidance on which EN codes to use, let alone assistance in actually complying to the requirements of the directive (which is no help in identifying actual EN codes to use). Trying to contract with a firm in the EU is met with additional hurdles and expenses, only to be referred to a notified body who also has another set of hurdles and expenses, only to pay another tax and purchase the copies of the codes through another private entity who wants additional fees, only to realize the original consulting firm left out an essential requirement that requires more consultation fees, with more notified body fees, with more taxes, with more items we need to purchase to perform secondary checks against our consultants.... It's always clear as mud, and I've never had so much as a phone call or email after any project for all of the CE stuff I've put my name on.

If your client/customer has been through this before it's worth a phone call up the food chain on their end until you get in touch with someone knowledgeable on the subject with whom you can clear up your questions. Ultimately if you are indeed within SEP I believe most of the requirements are going to be in the written contract or specification that is your scope of work. If they're not specifying enough information for you to complete the work they contracted for you to finish they need to provide either the prevailing code for guidance, or they need to specify the needed missing information.
 
@XL83NL 1) Thanks, 2) Duh :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
 
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