Spark spectrometer selection 2

[CdotS]

I am in the process of selecting a spark spectrometer for analyzing various kinds of steel products ranging from carbon steel to low alloy steel with boron.

Based on your experience, any comments on various spectrometers available in terms of performance (accuracy, speed,range of elements), cost, service support, etc?

Thank you in advance.

 

[arunmrao]

You probably mean an optical emission spectrometer. You plan to buy a new or refurbished one? The best choice would be take your samples to existing user and try it for yourself. The operator will be able to give the details of service support and breakdown records.

I had done this while deciding on the model.

 

[Goahead]

May I suggest that you do not limit your search?
ASM Handbook Volume 10: Materials Characterization
provides descriptions of a wealth of instruments and techniques for characterizing materials. Depending on your actual requirements, other instruments may be able to provide more economically most of the answers you need.

http://www.welding-advisers.com/

 

[EdStainless]

If you need C & B you almost need to go with spark OE.
Are you looking at a portable unit of a lab unit?
There is a lot of good slightly used equipment out there.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Corrosion never sleeps, but it can be managed.

http://www.trenttube.com/Trent/tech_form.htm

 

[NickelMet]

CdotS:

I had to spec one of these out for my previous company several years ago. The company of choice (at least in my opinion) at that time was SpectroAnalytical. At the time, the whole package (which included training time in use and maintenance) was a good deal. I even took a trip to their site to test 80+ alloys prior to the shipment of the machine. Their tech support was good also.

Just some questions: What type of materials are you going to be analyzing? (such as ferrous alloys, nickel alloys, etc.) Do you need reliable carbon/sulfur values or do you plan to use a LECO-type analyzer for that? What kind of environment are you using this in?

~NiM

 

[NickelMet]

Sorry, just realized you'd answered my first question in your original post. So I should phrase it: What is the sprectrum of materials you would analyze? Anything outside of carbon and low alloys steels? (such as ferrous alloys, nickel alloys, copper alloys, etc.)

 

[CdotS]

Thank you all for your valuable inputs.

My requirements are mainly carbon steel and low alloy steel (all elements of imporatance). Some steel products contain boron and therefore B is important to me. Occassionally we may want to analyze tool steels and other materials including cemented tungsten carbide.

My understanding is that if we buy a spark spectrometer, we can add other elements later for a fee, if required.

It will be lab based unit (not a portable one).

I got some info on used spectrometers which were in a foundry. How good will they be? Any one bought used equipment? What kind of problems should I anticipate with used spectrometers?

 

[arunmrao]

Used spectrometers are a good buy. Watch out for availability of service,spares. At times the spares may prove to be a headache and replacement may be an issue. A budget of 10-15kUS$ should get you a good one. Also look out for the poulation of spectrometers locally in your area. This will help you decide on the support available too.I have hands on experience with Baird, ARL. both were good and reliable.

China made spectrometers are aavailable at a lower price. Any takers? Not me atleast!!

 

[NickelMet]

CdotS:

Listen to the one line arunmrao states: "Watch out for availability of service, spares." The steel mini-mill where I used to work is a good example. They had an older ARL unit which required a lot of TLC. Then, due to the state of the electronics, finally had to be retrofitted due to the lack of spare parts. Retrofitting can be expensive and in some cases not possible. Also, you said you found some used in a foundry. Depending on their location and the environment they operated in, there may be some serious concern. (The internals may be seriously damaged by vibration and/or dust particles.) So my advice in the arena of used equipment is BE VERY CAREFUL.

One more thing, concerning used spectrometers. There should be a maintenance history on them. With my last two companies, we had yearly (once or twice a year) major maintenance (cleaning, realignment, PM, etc.) performed on them by the manufacturer's representative. If I were seriously considering buying a used machine, I would try and track down the maintenance history on that machine.

Also, you are correct about the addition of other elements to your analysis. However, if you are buying a new machine, it is better to get everything you need up front (cost effective). The last arc sparc machine I bought had the ability to switch between three major families of alloys: ferrous (steels), nickels, and coppers. Also, the carbon analysis was a bit steadier than past generations of machines, but I still trusted the old LECO carbon analyzers for reliability.

Lastly, you state the spectrometer will be lab based. Let me state the importance of lab cleanliness (with any type of spectrometer). Both labs I've dealt with had positive-pressure rooms for the spectrometers. Also, the air filtration system and temperature of the lab were kept under control. One of the labs sat no less than 25-feet from the induction furnace that was melting the alloys! Needless to say, I not only worried about cleanliness and temperature, but also the vibration and harmonics the furnace produced. (We had a floor dampening system installed.)

And I agree with arunmrao. I'd buy nothing from China in this case. Stick with the known entities: Baird, ARL, SpectroAnalytical (just to name a few). That warning also goes out for other "developing" countries.

Whew! Sorry to be long winded, but believe me, I know what a chore in a steel mill or alloy mill that keeping a spectrometer up can be. Just trying to pass along that knowledge. So, if you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Good luck!
~NiM

 

[arunmrao]

Retrofitting is very expensive and uncertain. It will be better to buy a new one. You might also get a good finance option to buy a new one and also an assurance to upgrade the equipment for the next few years. All depends on your bargaining(lung) power.

 

[bruv]

I'm inclined to agree with the majority of the advice above. ARL, Baird and Spectro are the major players (We have an ARL running iron-, copper- and nickel-base). There probably are second hand bargains to be had, particularly at auction.

Our lab is around 250 feet from the furnace, with only a set of doors between us and the (relatively clean) foundry. We do make sure that filters are kept clean and the floor is swept, but we have no problems with the optics. We also have a Leco and an XRF in the same room. The lab is air-conditioned - vital if you are in a warm part of the world. Most modern spectrometers are designed to maintain a cabinet temperature around 38C, which is well above the likely ambient, and instrument stability is maintained.

If you do not want to use a Leco for the carbons in shouldn't be a problem. Immediately before running the sample run a standard with a known carbon (at around the same level as the sample) and make corrections from this, which will take into account any variables. Same goes for all other elements. If you are already doing this, ignore the last paragraph.

If you do go looking for new kit, go out with the reps to talk to other users, and play with their machines if they let you.

Good luck

Bruv

 

[MOB1]

We have been running a second hand SpectroLab instrument for eight years with good support (through a amintenance contract). There are some issues with stability(it is housed in an air conditioned room) and requires re-calibration almost daily. The cost of calibration standards needs to be kept in mind.
I have been told that newer ARL instruments are more stable than the SpectroLab.