Speed Survey Question 1

[Nicholaa]

Hi,

I'm a woman in New York that is doing her own battle against an illegal posting of a speed limit due to a speeding ticket that I received. I just have one question that I was hoping someone would be able to answer for me as I have been unable to find this information on my own. Since I am doing all my own research for my own defense,I am hoping I can find an answer to my question!

Here's my question:

I am reviewing a speed survey done on the road, back in 1977. There has been no other speed survey done on the road since then. Now, according to the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, all traffic control devices should be reviewed periodically to determine if they meet current traffic conditions.

What is the actual Traffic Engineer definition of periodically? I was told that in manuals such as "Manual of Transportation Studies" and "Traffic Engineering Handbook", that the definition of periodically would be considered 5-years. That there is an actual "Five-Year Rule" that applies to traffic engineering studies.

I am hoping that you will be able to verify this 5-year rule for me as I have not been able to find copies of either of these books and I really do not want to spend the kind of money that the books cost on Amazon to purchase them to find one answer to one question.

I really hope that you will take the time to answer this one question for me so I can be successful in battling this case where the people of my area continue to receive speeding tickets on a road that has not been re-evaluated since 1977!

Sincerely,

Lynne A. Dorrington
Owego, NY 13827

 

[sc]

Don't know how it works in the US, but in Australia there is no such thing as an illegal posting of a speed limit.

Why?

Because in Australia all speed limits are approved by the state government road & traffic authority. The signs must be placed in a certain location on the road and must be clearly visible.

Where a sign is not posted, then the basic rule of 50 km/hr in residential areas and 100km/hr in rural areas or a "safe" speed applies where conditions may warrant lesser speeds.

To more directly answer your question, periodically may be 5 years or longer, generally reviews are more than likely carried out "on request" (by a concerned person or organisation) or as a part of a "development application".

This reduces the need for major "programmed" reviews in many areas. For example, if the road speed is impacted on by increased traffic due to a development nearby, then a review of the proposed development should pick up the need for change. So in effect a regular review of a main collector road to a newly developing area may be at twelve month intervals. Whereas an existing area that has no new development or changes in traffic flows may be reviewed at 10 year or greater intervals.

Unfortunately not many areas have a black and white answer to what is acceptable as a review period for the above reasons.

In Australia I would expect that any defence mounted on a "lack of review and inappropriate speed posting" defence would be thrown out of court. As the routes are very often clearly speed limited, marked and approved at state level.

Yes, I have collected fines for speeding in areas where a greater speed is easily acheivable. Eg rural areas where there are no roadside hazards and the road is in excellent condition (limit = 100km/hr, speed = 125km/hr). So the system is not always fair, but at the end of the day, the individual is responsible for their actions regardless of whether or not the limits applied are fair.



sc

 

[KRSServices]

Your defense is really, really weak if all you have is the "periodic review" argument. The manual on uniform traffic control devices first of all, is a guideline. More importantly though, it prescribes size, shape, spacing, etc. of the SIGN. It has absolutely nothing to do with the posted speed (which the sign represents)...that is solely the jurisdiction of the highway. The check is for maintenance purposes to ascertain whether the sign is weathered or damaged and warrants replacement.

The legislators (highway or road jurisdiction) designated the speed zone, and the sign merely states the posted speed limit. Regardeless of their rationale, it is law until otherwise amended.

With reference to the speed survey, again, there is nothing in that survey, other than information, that would bind an authority to change the speed limits, unless otherwise petitioned by the public. Unless the road cross section or designation changed dramatically, warranting a possible change, I think you are wasting your time challenging the ticket.

KRS Services

http://www.krs-services.com

 

[alexjb]

hi nicholaa,

i've been investigating an issue similar to what you describe. i'm curious to know how you found the speed survey data that you did find. also, i presume that you've had your day in court by now; how did it go?

..AlexJB

 

[SilverSand2021]

Regarding this issue.... does anyone know of an online version of this manual, or any resources on TES and radar-diplay boxes (those things on the side of the road that display drivers' speed)?

They're meant to survey the passing drivers' speed, and adjust the speed limit according to what 75% of the drivers do in that particular zone. However, there's NO public information available, and people are afraid that they'll get a ticket if they exceed the speed limit posted, so they slow down, thus skewing the avegare and giving the municipality an excuse to lower the speed limit & give out more speeding tickets.

I would love to find out if there's a "safety zone" around these, so cops can't hide behind & issue tickets (interference with the survey).

I'd like to start a campaign to inform people of what those things really do, and the laws regarding them. However, I need to get the actual references before I start giving people advice, and I have been unable to find this information in the local library/civic center.

Can anyone help?

"If the law is just, it must be followed. If it is not, it MUST BE changed."

 

[VMIguy]

I will have to second what KRSServices stated.

The MUTCD is irrelevant in your case UNLESS there was no posted speed limit sign.

The problem there lies with what SC posted. In the absence of a posted speed limit, there are assumed limits, generally 35 MPH in the city and 55 MPH on the highways. Unfortunately, ignorance of a particular municipality's ordinance(s) in this matter is not considered a valid defense.

I would recommend that you go to one of the numerous free legal advice forums. They can help clarify certain points of law and give suggestions for avenues to pursue in your defense.

-------------------

http://www.VirginiaDOT.org

 

[ACtrafficengr]

About the only "insufficient study" defense in NY is if no official order or local law has been filed setting the speed limit, or the government body that passed the law did not have the authority to do so. For example, towns with fewer than 50,000 inhabitants, or that are not designated as "suburban towns" in NYS Town Law, do not have the authority to set speed limits on town roads. NYSDOT does it. (This may be changing in the near future)

Even if the speed limit was set in 1977 and not changed since, it would have an official order or local law.

Also, NY has it's own manual for traffic control devices, Volume 17B of the NY Code of Rules and Regulations. Don't rely on the federal MUTCD to bolster your case.

 

[crckrjck]

The real issue would be: what is the statute?

You could make a case if the statute read "prima facia evidence of a violation of the basic speed rule".

Then presenting a more recent survey showing an 85th percentile speed that is inconsistant with the posting.

There could be a basis for arguing 'speed trap'. (See California Vehicle Code 40802, 40803, 22531, 22532 for interesting twist)

Lots of research at these sites.

See

http://www.fightthe55.com

,

http://www.hwysafety.com/

,

http://www.motorist.org