Stamping vs signing 6

[ICman]

I really don't use my PE license much around here, since almost everything we do is for internal use only. However, an engineer (not PE) came to me with a design that had to have a PE stamp on it.

Of course, the drawings had to go out today (Friday before Labor Day weekend). I basically turned him down, since I didn't do the design and didn't oversee the work. I told him that if I had a chance to review it, I would then stamp it for him (assuming that everything was OK).

Since I've only been here a couple of years (he's been here 17+), I am not real familiar with the SOP, but ... he was upset and said he would just ask another PE to sign, since they have before. Was I wrong to turn him down?

Now, I'm also wondering, if a drawing is stamped, BUT NOT SIGNED, is it assumed to be "approved"? Or, if it's stamped "Pending", does that affect the approval status?

I decided that either one could be construed as approved, so I didn't offer. It might take a court case to really determine, but I thought I'd throw it on the table for discussion. Has anyone ever done this?

. . . Steve

 

[JAE]

Steve,
You were right in turning him down. As a PE you are legally held under specific guidelines to practice engineering where the public safety and welfare is concerned.

Since the stamp was "required" for this particular instance, I would guess it was an engineered design that was exposed to the public, thus, in most states in the USA, you cannot plan-stamp a design that you didn't have direct control or supervision over.

In many states, this is VERY illegal and can result in fines if caught. Now probably the chance of getting caught may be nil, but you are also under an ethical mandate by the board that licensed you to not mis-behave even if you wouldn't get caught...this is called integrity.

There is usually no distinction between stamped and signed....most states require both in all cases and usually a stamped-only design would not pass muster - it has to be signed as well.

I applaud your decision - stick to it in the future. You might also call your local engineering board or review your engineering laws to brush up on what you are required to do.

 

[dozer]

Steve,
You were absolutely right. A guy with 17+ years of experience should know better than to put you on the spot like like that.

A nurse wouldn't ask a doctor to fill out a prescription for a patient sight unseen. (Maybe I'm being naive.) So why in the engineering profession is our professional license treated with what almost seems like contempt with our non-licensed associates. Sorry but this story hits a nerve with me. I'm just tired of people with little liability expecting us engineers to just wave our magic wand and declare a design blessed.

Keep up the good work, Steve.

 

[haggis]

Steve,

I agree with everyone. Your reasons for not stamping/signing this work are well founded. His statement that: "he would just ask another PE to sign, as they have before" tends to make me think that others have been asked and refused as did you. With 17 + years I would assume that his work good but you can't just put blind faith in someone in this case. I also hope that your company supports and respects your stance on this regardless of schedules falling behind a few days.

Incedentally, I am not a licenced engineer and would never expect the our consultant to stamp and sign anything without a thorough review of the design.

Just my 2 cents and a little support.

 

[Beggar]

Steve,

Let me jump on the "right-on" bandwagon. Not only did you do the right thing, your colleague was way out of line to even suggest that you "rubber stamp" with your seal and to get bent because you wouldn't.

"...since they have before." Well, repetition and history is not an excuse for breaking the law. In fact, quite the contrary. The history moves the action from an accidental oversight to premdediated, intentional fraud.

Can you say PUNITIVE damages??

You absolutely did the right thing.

Oh yeah, I'm not a PE, either.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[monkeydog]

Steve,
I have been out of school for 22 years, and just got my PE last year. I got it for personal achievement purposes, and will probably never use it.
You are in the right!
If your 17 year co-worker want's a quick stamp for his work, he can get his own stamp!

 

[Ron]

Steve,
Just adding agreement. This issue comes up in my company and others like it in this business on a routine basis, almost always as a push by non-licensed individuals.

Of course you were right to turn him down. We are licensed for a reason and that reason is not for the convenience of the unlicensed public, but for the protection of the health, safety and welfare of the public at large.

I often get this request from Project Managers or others at 4:00 on Friday afternoon, stating that "this report (or design, etc.) must go out today. My response is the same....."call your client and tell them that the report will be late. You may give any excuse you want, but it will be late, because I am going to give it an adequate review before I sign and seal it." Further, we discourage (and prevent when we can), internal "seal shopping". We've seen some pretty resourceful attempts!

This is an educational process that every firm with both licensed and unlicensed individuals in positions of responsibility must face. Remember, if you are a licensed engineering entity or a licensed individual, that prevails over other considerations.

Also, I am vehemently opposed to placing non-licensed individuals in supervisory charge over licensed individuals for these reasons.

Ron

 

[ICman]

Wow! Thanks for the support!

Before I had my P.E., I signed a vessel drawing that I didn't remember checking. The Project Manager was in a hurry to get a bunch of documents out and told me that I had checked it, but he didn't have time to get the check copy out.

Well, as it turned out, I did not check it and there was a boo-boo (flange size was wrong). The client pointed this out. I didn't get into any trouble, but I have felt guilty ever since (about 24 years!). Therefore, I do not sign anything I know I haven't checked. This is even more important since becoming licensed.

The company/industry I work in is used to the "good 'ol boy" method of doing business. This particular design is used in-house, but because the company was split up recently, the design is now for the new owner. We require stamped drawings on any work done outside (as do they), so a PE stamp was required here. This is a fairly new requirement, so the engineer was not used to anyone being so "strict" as to actually follow the law.

I hope my refusal brought this to his attention. If not, he at least knows not to come to me with drawings to be stamped un-seen.

Stamps can be "borrowed" and used to stamp drawings, making them appear at first glance to be approved. However, forging a signature is more difficult. A number of years ago, my company (not the same company) desired to get approval to CAD-stamp drawings with a PE stamp. I think that was approved. However, I don't think they inserted a signature.

I don't mind a CAD stamp when there are a lot of drawings. However, I strongly disagree if they CAD the signature. It might cause a little writer's cramp, but that's preferred over an un-approved design being issued.

Does anyone know of a company that inserts a P.E. approval stamp AND signature with CAD?

. . . Steve

 

[HgTX]

Ron said: 'Further, we discourage (and prevent when we can), internal "seal shopping".'

How do you go about discouraging and preventing it?

Hg

 

[Ron]

Steve,
In my primary practice state, an original embossed seal is required on every plan sheet. The rule allows for signing a cover sheet of bound documents, but I've had several of those rejected by plan review authorities that I don't bother anymore...just sign/seal 'till my hand cramps up!

Pre-printing the seal is not allowed under our law. I believe that to be the case in most states, but you have to check the law or the rules of the governing board.

Ron

 

[ICman]

HgTX brings up a good point. You certainly wouldn't be on the Popularity list if you started reporting every unauthorized stamp/signature that you knew of. In fact, that could be considered "whistle-blowing" and you could lose your job. Then, you could only report those whom you didn't care for of if you wanted their job . Just kidding, that wouldn't be very ethical.

I have been in several situations where I knew of this happening. I have argued with Project Management, but usually to no avail. Meeting the schedule/cost restraints are most important to a project manager, as well as to the company. Most are willing to let "any little mistakes" go by, rather than produce a better quality design. They're betting the odds that nothing will go wrong.

As a Professional Engineer, that rubs me the wrong way. The History Channel showed many engineering mistakes this weekend, and while they may be catastrophic, they are thankfully rare. I think most engineering companies figure that's why they pay for liability insurance - cheaper than doing it right, I guess.

Unfortunately, I don't know a good way to prevent or discourage "seal shopping".

. . . Steve

 

[HgTX]

The Texas Engineering Practice Act does provide for electronic signature:

§137.35 Electronic Seals and Sealing Requirements
(a) Engineering work transmitted in an electronic format that contains a computer generated seal shall be accompanied by the following text or similar wording: “The seal appearing on this document was authorized by (Example: Leslie H. Doe, P.E. 0112) on (date).” unless accompanied by an electronic signature as described in this section. A license holder may use a computer-generated representation of his or her seal on electronically conveyed work; however, the final hard copy documents of such engineering work must contain an original signature of the license holder(s) and date or the documents must be accompanied by an electronic signature as described in this section. A scanned image of an original signature shall not be used in lieu of an original signature or electronic signature.
(b) An electronic signature is a digital authentication process attached to or logically associated with an electronic document and shall carry the same weight, authority, and effects as an original signature. The electronic signature, which can be generated by using either public key infrastructure or signature dynamics technology, must be as follows:
(1) unique to the person using it.
(2) capable of verification.
(3) under the sole control of the person using it.
(4) linked to a document in such a manner that the electronic signature is invalidated if any data in the document are changed.

I haven't seen electronically transmitted drawings in practice yet.

What I have seen in practice for documents transmitted in hardcopy is preprinting the seal in CAD (and the folks who sell stamps and embossers will sell you a JPEG of your stamp too) but hand-signing the reproducible mylar.

Hg

 

[EddyC]

ICman,

I suggest getting a copy of the State Rules & Regulations regarding engineering and sharing it with the individual who asked you to rubber stamp the drawings. I seriously doubt that he knows the Rules. Sharing them with him may help him to understand why you refused. He probably thinks that you were needlessly fussy. He also has to be made aware that it doesn't matter if he is older than you, has seniority and is better technically. Your PE stamp is yours and yours alone. It is your choice only whether you choose to utilize it and no one else's. I also suggest looking into the type of professional liability insurance that your employer carries and whether it covers you.

Good Luck.

 

[RDK]

The rules in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta where I currently have or have had registration only allow a seal to be issued if it is signed. This is most likely the case elsewhere.

I would think that you would get into trouble for improper use of the seal on top of any other liability that could accrue by the bad design.

Bottom line, if you are not willing to bet your license on it, keep the stamp in the drawer.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[Ron]

HgTx.....We have company policies in place that require two signatures on reports (only one signature is required on drawings, but they must be separately reviewed), one of which must be a Designated Senior Professional (one must typically be licensed to achieve this designation, though there are exceptions). The intent is "cradle-to-grave" involvement of the Senior Professional in all project activities, at least from a critical Quality Assurance review. Thus the Senior Professional should know of the project and its deadlines beforehand, but if a project manager blows that, then things start to slide downhill. Sometimes, in the "heat of battle" a small project will get started and almost completed before the Senior Professional is aware of it. This is where the system breaks down and the PM then can go seal shopping. When caught they get reprimanded and habitual abusers get worse.

Regarding your statement on electronic signatures....I have used them for submittals, but the system is not yet universally accepted enough for the receiving end to routinely finalize the authentication process. As better software becomes more readily available, it will become more popular and the tendency to abuse it will likely increase as well!

My electronic signature has an image of my seal behind it. As stated in your statute, an electronic signature is not an image of your physical signature, but an algorithmic authentication process that must be verifiable and controlled.

As for mylars, my primary practice state does not allow the sealing of reproducible media.

Ron

 

[jheidt2543]

Very good discussion all!

In Wisconsin, and possible many other states, the rule regarding sealing of drawings and reports is that the work product must be PREPARED by the sealing engineer or under his/her DIRECT supervision. That precludes sealing ANY document that doesn't fit that definition.

To solve the problem of sealing someone else's work product, Wisconsin allows the sealing engineer to sign and seal a cover letter that he has reviewed the work product. This carries the same weight and liability as if the actual document were signed, but it recognizes the distinction in the registration law.

 

[jsummerfield]

Texas disciplinary actions and FAQs are available on the web.

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/disciplinary.htm

Here are some of the FAQ and responses including items discussed on this thread:
How does an individual know when a P.E. (Professional Engineer) is required?
Refer to Sections 1001.053 and 1001.056 of the Texas Engineering Practice Act.
• When public money and structural, electrical or mechanical engineering is involved and the contemplated expenditure for the project exceeds $8,000;
• When public money and electrical or mechanical engineering is not involved and the contemplated expenditure for the project exceeds $20,000;
• Private dwellings that are exceeding eight units for one-story buildings or exceeding four units for two-story buildings;
• Other buildings having more than one story and containing a clear span between supporting structures greater than 24 feet on the narrow side and having a total floor area over 5,000 square feet. Section 1001.056
How do I find out if a license holder has had any complaints filed against him/her?
Contact the Board office and ask if a complaint has ever been filed against a professional engineer, an unlicensed person, or a firm offering to perform engineering services in Texas.
How do I sign my seal?
License holders should sign their name either above or below the seal so that the signature does not obscure the license holder’s name and license number.
When do I seal a document?
License holders should affix their engineer seal, signature, and date of execution to all documents containing the final version of any engineering work. Refer to Board Rule 137.31 and 137.33.
Can I use a computer-generated seal?
Yes. The instructions for the use of computer-generated seals are set forth in Board Rule 137.31, 137.33 and 137.35.
How should a computer-generated seal be used?
Computer-generated seals may be of a reduced size provided that the engineer's name and number are clearly legible. Refer to Board Rule 137.31(c).
If not accompanied by an original signature and date; the following text or similar wording shall accompany computer-generated seals! "The seal appearing on this document was authorized by (Example: Leslie H. Doe, P.E. 0112) on (date)." Refer to Board Rule 137.35(a).
Do I need to notify the board if I believe that someone has violated the Texas Engineering Practice Act or Board rules?
License holders shall first notify involved parties or the Board of any engineering decisions or practices that might endanger the health, safety, property, or welfare of the public. When, in an engineer's judgment, any risk to the public remains, unresolved, that engineer shall report any fraud, gross negligence, incompetence, misconduct, unethical or illegal conduct to the Board or proper civil or criminal authorities. Refer to Board Rule 137.55(c).
What do I do when I'm asked to correct or complete a project begun by another engineer?
An engineer, as a third party, may alter, complete, correct, revise, or add to the work of another engineer when engaged to do so by a client, provided: the client furnishes the documentation of such work submitted to the client by the first engineer. The second engineer of the engagement immediately upon acceptance of the engagement notifies the first engineer in writing. Any work altered, completed, corrected, revised, or added to shall have a seal affixed by the second engineer. The second engineer then becomes responsible for any alterations, additions or deletions to the original design including any effect or impact of those changes on the original engineer's design. Refer to Board Rule 137.33(i).
Can an engineer who is licensed as a civil engineer practice in mechanical engineering or similar disciplines?
Yes. A license holder may perform any engineering assignment for which the engineer is qualified by education or experience to perform adequately and competently. Refer to Board Rule 137.59(b).
Are disciplinary actions against a license holder open to the public?
Yes. Disciplinary actions against a license holder, except for an informal reprimand, are published on our web site.
Can a license holder receive a disciplinary sanction and administrative penalty?
Yes. The suggested sanctions and administrative penalties against license holders are set forth in Board Rule 139.35(b).
If I am not a licensed engineer and I am found to be illegally practicing engineering, can I be sanctioned by the Board?
Yes. The suggestion sanctions and administrative penalties against non-licensed individuals are set forth in Board Rule 139.31(a) and 139.35(c).


John

 

[Tobalcane]

ICman,

I’m not a PE (will take exam this October), but I found this article that may pertain to you. One quote is (

http://www.nspe.org/etweb/10804planstamping.asp):

“The NSPE Code of Ethics states that engineers may approve only documents that are in conformity with applicable standards and that engineers cannot sign any plans or documents dealing with an area in which the engineer is not competent. In addition, engineers may not sign “any plan or document not prepared under their direction and control.””

Even though it is the “NSPE Code of Ethics”, it can only make sense to practice it.


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[DRC1]

The purpose of a PE stamp is to show the general public that a licensed engineer has approved the design shown in a drawing. If you have not reviewed it or do not feel the design is safe, you should not stamp it. End of story.
As far as stamping, most regulations require the engineer afix his stamp and sign. Technically the stamp is not valid with out a signature, but if a drawing is stamped but not signed it could eaisly slip through the approval process. It does not matter who paid for your license or your stamp, they are your property and your responsibility and possibly your liability. If people in your firm are not respecting the fact that it is your choice in wether or not your stamp gets applied, I would talk to your licensing board and make them aware of your problems and ask their advise. I would not use a cadd stamp. Good Luck

 

[sandorfla]

I am a PE and am still confused on exactly how "plan stamping" is defined. I know they always state something to the effect that the design must be 1. Done by the PE or 2. Directly under the PE's supervision. If a design done by "whoever" is presented to a PE for approval and the PE does a complete review of calculations or does some additional calculations to demonstrate that the design is correct, why would that not be equivalent to having done the design personally? In many cases, the "design" to be approved is something rather simple, like a steel beam in a residential basement where very little calculation is required but the local authorities insist on a PE approval.