Steam Turbine Vibration Monitoring

[bigbb]

Hi all, need your advices.Small power plant , 3 steam turbines (13KW each) Have to find solution for vibration protection and prediction monitoring. Plant is switching over to DeltaV.
Emerson has a solution for everything, but it is very very expensive (more then 300k just for vibrations for 3 turbines) Please bring your ideas. Who else can do it with implementation to DeltaV

Thanks
BB

 

[ScottyUK]

Bently Nevada is the number #1 in vibration monitoring, but if you think the price from Emerson-CSI was expensive you should have a stiff drink before reading the Bently quote. 100k what, BTW - USD? GBP? Italian Lira?

13kW/machine? That's remarkably small. If these are really 13MW sets then 100k / machine is a bargain if it prevents the trubine being wiped out. Price up a new turbine rotor or a new set of bearings - I bet you are looking at far more than 100k. and view the vibration monitoring as an insurance policy against something very bad happening to your machine.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[bigbb]

Thanks,
You are right it is mostly for preventing something very bad. So we probably do not need all this complicated stuff like analyzing software. And this is how Emerson makes money. License for everything, and renewal every year.
100k USD (by the way) where about 25k for software.
I do not have a lot of experience with vibrations, why it cost 3 times more then regular DSC/PLC systems.
Anyway thanks for directions.

BB

 

[ScottyUK]

Why is it expensive? Minority interest products usually are, simply because they're expensive to develop and the numbers sold are relatively small to recoup the devopment costs.

We successfully tied a Bently 3300 system back into a Westinghouse (Emerson) WDPF system and had all the information from the 3300 available together with the turbine and generator data. I am sure the old CSI range which Emerson bought will now be well-integrated into Emerson's other products - it certainly integrates into their Ovation DCS platform. Having all the process data available instead of just the vibration data made for an easier time when diagnosing problems. I don't know Delta V that well but I expect its historical data capture and analysis is pretty good. You can likely save the cost of the software etc IF you have an engineer who can interpret the vibration data.


Is this really 13kW per turbine?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[bigbb]

Thanks ScottyUK,

And sorry my bad it is 13MW.
You are right this equipment is relatively rear. But in some cases people buy systems with a lot of features and never use them. That what I am trying to figure out, what is the must and what is a nice to have. I mean if we need all Emerson's package CSI6000 for protection monitoring, CSI6500 for prediction monitoring, all software + AMS Suite, + a bunch of stuff for communication with DeltaV( MD controller + a couple of cards and licenses for all)

Thanks again

BB

 

[ScottyUK]

Buy the hardware and integrate it with your Delta V system over data link. Given the choice use Ethernet - the older system used RS485 which took more effort to set up and was less stable. Not sure what the CSI product offers.

Add the vibration data to the Historian - all of it: gap voltages, 1x and 2x vibration data, amplitude, keyphasor, everything!

Investigate how much it will cost to get a consultant to help you analyse the data - I seem to recal that Don Bently has set up a new company and this is a service they offer. There are many others.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[bigbb]

Thanks,
That what I was thinking. To send all the data to historian, build some displays.I do not need online analysis. In case of trip I can pull the data and investigate.Now I have to check what resolution I can get on DeltaV historian, and how critical it is for turbine monitoring 1 sec, 125 msec??. Have to talk to consultants what they need for analysis.
Emerson's software and licences for every point and card.
I cannot stand it.

 

[itsmoked]

Emerson's software and licenses for every point and card.
I cannot stand it.

I agree that is very onerous and created by small minded thinkers. Pretty sad.

Good luck!

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com