Structural Drafting and Cad 7

[marinaman]

I'm a one-man structural engineering office. I own AutoCad.....but....due to my fear that my clients would begin using Revit (which none of them have) I purchased the Autodesk Building Design Suite that included AutoCad and Revit. I am on subscription.

I know there is a cad forum on this site, but, I want to talk only with structural engineers in my shoes who use AutoCad.

Renewal is close to $1,000 bucks a year for my single seat.....and.....my reseller (Advanced Solutions) wants another $375 for a year's worth of support. I tried to attend a Advanced Solution seminar on Revit and ended up leaving half-way thru the seminar as I had more knowledge of Revit, having never used it, than the instructor. Very disappointing.

That being said, is there a better reseller out there or are they all about the same? Not a single one of my clients use Revit.....and those who have tried it found that it killed their drawing quality. I have found that most who claim to use it actually build a crude model in it, only to do the actual production drawings in normal 2D AutoCad. The 3D work that my clients use to illustrate projects to clients are actually done in Sketch-Up and then we do 2D AutoCad drawings. My questions are:

- Who has had good service from a reseller and who is that reseller.
- Can I get a yearly renewal less expensive than $1,000 for one seat?
- In this specific industry (structural engineering for commercial buildings) is Revit the future or some other program that's better?





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[Archie264]

I can only speak to your last question and to that all I have to offer is my *opinion* so please take it as that only. In my *opinion*, for structural engineering, nothing will ever fully replace carefully-thought-out 2D drawings. Three dimensional modeling has it's uses, but our discipline is too dependent on highly detailed schematic drawings for a 3D model to ever fully take their place. That is simply my *opinion*.

 

[JAE]

Archie in the near term you may be correct. But in the long term - your statement appears to me to be one of those that would be chuckled over someday in the future.

Sort of like that genius who stated that computers would never become a feature with the average person.

 

[Archie264]

But, remember, also chuckled over are the 1950's predictions that we'd all conduct our daily commute in flying cars by this point...

 

[JAE]

Well that's a positive prediction that "something" will be developed.
Your's is a negative ("nothing ever will replace...").

We are already doing 60% of our work in BIM and eventually 2D drawings will be archaic in my view.
Larger contractors are already replacing paper drawings with pdf's on large table screens.....not too far away from a 3D model using holographic images on the go!

 

[tempeng]

- Who has had good service from a reseller and who is that reseller.

Being in the UK, I don't think I can help you there.

- Can I get a yearly renewal less expensive than $1,000 for one seat?

See above.

- In this specific industry (structural engineering for commercial buildings) is Revit the future or some other program that's better?

Tough one. I had a couple of jobs passed to me for a facade retention design, in which, all the drawings had been generated using Revit. They where utterly appalling and I refused to believe they had ever been issued in that state and requested the original Revit file. It really was that bad. Whether it is the program that's lacking or the draftmans knowledge of 3D modeling wasn't up to scratch I don't know but it did warrant a full redraw.

Some of the larger fabricators over here swear by it (and other programs such as StruCAD) and, in the hands of an experienced 3D designer, Some of the drawings they produced were amazing (not to mention that they had the program designing end connections and splices and all that jazz) but to get to that stage you need a very expensive designer with a great computer and at least, a dual screen set up to monitor the 2D plans as they go. Bit much for a one man band and far too much time spent on a single project.

/ramble

 

[dcarr82775]

Like it or not, it is going towards REVIT. I don't think it is the great panacea people make it out to be, but it is better for some things. We do not do much with it, but a little. The learning curve is steep and I find the ability to control linetypes and line weights is a massive pain in the butt. The model may be right, but getting the 2D drawings to look even decent is almost as hard as building the model in my opinion.

Our local reseller has a great REVIT guy so the classes are very useful. Of course they also have a couple of useless REVIT people so you need to make sure you get the class taught by the good one. I don't think I am supposed to post their website and such on these pages so not sure how to give you their info.

As for cost, I think we pay about the same per seat. I doubt there is much difference reseller to reseller

 

[kylesito]

Novel alert...

#1 - I have not found a group that is consistently great. I have had good service and bad service with several including Advanced Solutions. Some of this just depends on who you work with. Some of the best have been smaller, regional outfits so without knowing where you are, it is difficult to give recommendations.

#2 - I don't think $1000 is out of the ordinary. This seems in line with my experience.

#3 - I am a past AutoCad junkie and never thought Revit would pan out. My new company uses Revit exclusively...even with architects who use AutoCAD. Now, I will not open AutoCAD unless I don't have to. I respectfully disagree with anyone who says drawings produced in Revit are inferior to those produced by AutoCAD. Drawing quality is a function of the producer, not the software being utilized. I have seen great and poor drawings done using any variety of products.

Here are some thoughts to back up my beliefs about Revit:
- Revit is a model. AutoCAD is a drawing. This requires different workflows, organization, and a different approach to design. Those who try to "draft" with Revit are usually disappointed. Those who recognize the power of a model will rarely go back to AutoCAD

- Not being able to use "your shortcuts" does not equal inferiority. Just because you "have your keys" set up in AutoCAD and can change a polyline in 2 clicks but it takes 3 clicks to modify a column in Revit does not mean AutoCAD is better. That third click in Revit just changed the 3 sections associated with column, how it was labeled in three floor plans, and updated your column schedule instantly. I'd be hard pressed to find many CAD users who can guarantee their changes make it into every detail in their set.

- Time is money. Revit is more efficient. Period. This is especially true for those who recognize the power of a model versus a drawing. A model can be integrated with analysis software to capture design changes on the fly and change all of the annotation associated with these changes by simply changing it in one location. How many engineers, draftsman, and checkers does it take to get these changes done in AutoCAD? Anyone have extra hours to spend on a project to check these things?

- Knowledge is power. The more information you can feel confident in putting on your drawings; the more confident the architect will be in their design, the easier the contractor will be able to build what you want, and the more money the owner will save in changes. I don't have to leave dimensions and elevations off my drawing anymore for fear things are not coordinated. I can put them on with confidence because I have overlayed, viewed, rotated, and cut every aspect of the building I am concerned with. Now I am confident to include any information I think the users of my drawing need without leaving doubt in their minds about what I intended.


I could go on and get into some very specific project related things where BIM/Revit has saved major dollars and frustration on a project. But the bottom line is that most people who actually buy into the "Modeling" aspect of Revit end up very satisfied. Those that never really commit to making the changes in their approach/workflow and even to a degree, their staff levels, usually end up disappointed and make comments about how it isn't as good as AutoCAD.

No, Revit isn't perfect. So, if the only thing that will get you away from AutoCAD is when something perfect comes along, then this isn't it. I believe it solves more problems than it creates. And I believe it resolves many of the shortcomings of AutoCAD without at least matching its performance. But again, I think it comes down to the user.

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[dik]

I use Bricscad... it has 3D features and does about 99.9% of what AutoCAD does and costs half the price of AutoCAD LT...

I can input an AutoCAD 35 meg 3D drawing in it... modify it and send it on to our drafting department and they can work on it or whatever with not a 'glitch'...

I've had the program 'lock up' twice in the 4 years I've been using it and have gracefully recovered the lost work.

Dik

 

[dcarr82775]

Dik,

Only twice in 4 years.....if only Autodesk could match that kind of track record

 

[Archie264]

To clarify my earlier position (I'm one of the resident Luddites), it's not that I think that 3D modeling doesn't have it's place, and indeed, it's clearly here to stay. My position is that it will never fully replace 2D drafting. For applications such as steel detailing where every dimension of the members are fully known it has great value. And for simple and/or repetitive and/or "cookie-cutter" applications it makes a lot of sense and is economical. But for non-typical situations, connections, interaction between multiple materials, etc., there will always be a place for a customized 2D drawings.

In all the 3D models I've seen that involved multiple materials there was always an interference of some sort clearly visible. I've seen steel flanges interfering with walls and even a missing column on one occasion. And yes, mistakes can be made in any format and anything can ultimately be modeled given enough time and manpower but at what cost?

In my opinion the need for 2D details will go away the same time that buildings can be fully automatically designed with the push of a button...at which point there will be no need for engineers anyway.

At this point these computer devices are no longer new-fangled. Both they and the attendant software have been around long enough that if 3D modeling were to completely supplant 2D drafting it would have happened by now. While not completely analogous it nevertheless reminds me of the perennial talk of wind and solar power supplying all our energy needs. I constantly hear that it's going to happen but that we're just not quite there yet. (To be repeated the following year...)

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[JAE]

Revit isn't a 3D cad program.

It is a database that has the ability to graphically display its data.

 

[Archie264]

It's also a cumbersome pain in the...anyway, I hope you enjoy it.

It's not my cup of tea. Perhaps some day I'll be forced to use it but that hasn't happened yet. I'm sure I'll leave a trail of fingernail marks the whole way...

 

[XR250]

I am with Archie on this one.
I hope I retire before I am forced to use it. I am on a Mac anyway and use a the best 2D program available on any platform.
I get to see tons of drawings come across my desk each year as I do alot of metal stud shop drawings. The quality of 2d drawings seems to be in decline and I assume it is because they are created in Revit or similar and the sections are cut from there.

 

[RareBugTX]

My two cents.
I have been tried to be sold for 15 years, the idea of a heavenly 3D software that will do all for me. The time has not come and do not think it will. IMO the nature of our graphical and analytical work is Two Dimensional. Period. It is a nonsense to even try to suggest drawing a detail in three dimensions. Overkill and neither feasible, nor practical. No matter what software new wonder comes out. To me, right there lies the strength of AutoCAD. The work of engineers and all that has been built has been represented in two dimensions for centuries. It is part of our nature.....I believe.

Thats my take and respect other beliefs.

 

[rowingengineer]

I think this all depends on your work flow, If the building required a 3D model to analysis than your probably going to like a drafting package that has the same capabilities. If however you are doing a portal frame building with just a few 2D frames than I would suggest a 2D drafting package will be sufficient. There is no correct answer, I still issue some hand drawings when the job doesn't get to a size that warrants computer aided drafting.

http://www.nceng.com.au/

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."

 

[GregLocock]

Hooray, a bit of commonsense instead of dogmatic myopia.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[dik]

dcarr: I've had LT lock up more often in an afternoon... and have lost work in the process... I mostly do simple stuff...

Dik

 

[JAE]

This thread reminds me of famous technology predictions (negative ones – i.e. something just can’t be done or something won’t happen).
Whether BIM specifically develops as the preferred design tool (vs. 2D cad) I don’t claim to know – but saying that 2D is here to stay….not sure I’d say that.
You may have read many of these but they are somewhat entertaining:

[blue]"The Americans have need of the telephone, but we do not. We have plenty of messenger boys."—Sir William Preece, chief engineer, British Post Office, 1876

"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication."—Western Union internal memo, 1876.

“Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax.” — William Thomson, Lord Kelvin, British scientist, 1899.

“The horse is here to stay but the automobile is only a novelty – a fad.” — The president of the Michigan Savings Bank advising Henry Ford’s lawyer, Horace Rackham, not to invest in the Ford Motor Co., 1903

“Lee DeForest has said in many newspapers and over his signature that it would be possible to transmit the human voice across the Atlantic before many years. Based on these absurd and deliberately misleading statements, the misguided public … has been persuaded to purchase stock in his company …” — a U.S. District Attorney, prosecuting American inventor Lee DeForest for selling stock fraudulently through the mail for his Radio Telephone Company in 1913.

“The cinema is little more than a fad. It’s canned drama. What audiences really want to see is flesh and blood on the stage.” -– Charlie Chaplin, actor, producer, director, and studio founder, 1916

“Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical (sic) and insignificant, if not utterly impossible.” – Simon Newcomb; The Wright Brothers flew at Kittyhawk 18 months later.

“There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.” — Albert Einstein, 1932

“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.” — Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

"Television won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night."—Darryl Zanuck, 20th Century Fox, 1946

"There is practically no chance communications space satellites will be used to provide better telephone, telegraph, television or radio service inside the United States."—T.A.M. Craven, Federal Communications Commission commissioner (1961)

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.” — Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp. (DEC), maker of big business mainframe computers, arguing against the PC in 1977.

"Everyone's always asking me when Apple will come out with a cell phone. My answer is, 'Probably never.'"—David Pogue, The New York Times, 2006
“We will never make a 32 bit operating system.” — Bill Gates[/blue]

 

[kylesito]

JAE, all things aside, those quotes are priceless!

PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi