Survey 101 For The Design Office 7

[RJLDesign]

This question is for the old survey junkies out there. I am a civil designer in Australia and for the record my survey skill are limited so please excuse my terminology and knowledge.

As a designer I rely on the terrain model provided highly but lately I have found that the survey being provided by young surveyors from various companies is getting worse and worse.

Simple thing like when surveying a road crown they are not making it a break line and the road triangulation is shows that it has no crown. Power poles no picked up and simply picking up levels incorrectly. The survey firms that the consultancy I work for use are regarded to be some of the best in the country but yet I am finding it is getting harder and harder to get survey that I can honestly rely on.

Have the more experienced surveyors out there in the world found that the younger graduates that come through now a days take allot of shots yet seem to really pick up very little information? or is it just a localised thing that I will have to live with.

I hate as a designer to have to sit down with surveyors and pick what is wrong with there work. Once upon a time I had no need to ever visit a site because the survey was so effective knew almost every blade of grass to the site. Now I have to go out just to make sure what they have located is really as shown and see what they have missed.

Will the survey Gods smile upon me again one day and help me with this madness


Rj

 

[Smacin]

I understand this.

I think that the problem lies with the surveyor not understanding what he is doing his work for. This could either be due to a lack of education at University or a lack of training by the surveyors employers.

 

[jheidt2543]

AustDesign,

I agree that some of the "standard of care" has fallen in surveying, if fact to some extent in the entire design profession. During my college years, my surveying instructors impressed upon us the need for checking and rechecking - field work, calculations, drawings and most importantly a field check with the completed survey.

I think there are a number of problems:

1. Today's demand for absolute lowest cost, push the work out the door and get on to the next one.

2. Field work is thought of as a commodity to be performed by technitions, not professionals. The field work may be reviewed by a professional at the office, but he may never have been out in the field to check the survey info. or the crew.

3. The almost total reliance on computers and total stations without carefully checking input and output.

What are possible solutions?

1. More in-house training of field crews, not just for the technical aspects of surveying, but in the basic information requirements to be met for various surveys.

2. Development of survey quality control checklists.

3. Field checking of every survey before it is pushed out the door.

Yes, this all costs time and money, but that cost must be weighed against the cost of litigation. I also think, in the long run quality work is the best advertisement.

 

[RJLDesign]

It is true the clients wallet is always a matter of concern. A clinet wants the cheapest job yet all the quality. But im afraid that the standard of survey that is being produced by most surveyors is pure garbage.

In Queensland (Australia) the survey must be collected and reduced by a registered surveyor. If a tech was dong this job i could excuse this type of work.

However to have a job triangulated incorrectly and to a point that it is like a red falshing dot on white back ground. And once reshot by the surveyor again that 50m of road either side of the point changes buy upto 600mm i must wonder is it lack of traing, Lack of knowlege for the gear or pure lack of care.

Rj


Diplomacy Has Failed Time For Some Action

 

[sc]

G'day Rj,

Yep surveyors today don't seem to care as much as they once did. The young surveyor is taught by the old surveyor, so its hard to lay the blame at their feet (but not always unwarranted). I started out my working life as a survey assistant and draftsman and learnt from a person who took pride in never having to return to a job (not bad for an untrained surveyor).

The key thing I learnt was that if it could be run into you got a level and location, if it made water run a different way way got a level and location, if it needed to be changed you got a level and location, etc. The main difference between now and then is that then we had in-house surveyors, now we have contractors.

The contractor is quite often a surveyor who has never worked in an engineering design office and does not know what is needed. They sure do know how to pick up what isn't needed though.

To reduce the problem give your surveyor an on-site briefing and point out what is required. Give then a check list so they know what you want and when they forget they can read about it. Sorry to say it but treat them like trainees and yes kick their bums when they don't do what is required. Eventually they will get sick of working for free and either get it right or stop working for you.

Having said that their are still quite a number of good surveyors and survey firms out there it just takes time to find them. Like every thing else you get what you pay for.


regards
sc

 

[KRSServices]

Young versus old, it does not matter. How many of you whom have written on this post instructed a legal survey firm to provide information necesary for your design?

If you all answered "I have", that is the start of your problem. You see, many legal surveyors are very good at what they do, but a legal surveyor is NOT a designer and many do not really know what is required. Our firm utilizes both a legal surveyor and our in-house surveyors. Every time, the in-house surveyors, because they are trained extensively in the work we do, know exactly what is required on the topo's, pickups and other preliminary design work.

They are very efficient and the client is saved money. Many legal surveyors are unfamiliar as to what we are specifically requiring. Therein lies the problem. I have been sorting through this problem for over 20 years now, and this is not only my observation but my opinion as well.

KRS Services

http://www.krs-services.com

 

[carlorom]

I agree pretty much with everything said in this thread - I have (for now) pulled out from survey work partly because of the pricing issues - the advent of new computerised equipment has simplified fieldwork and largely automated calculations - output in \cad etc. \but because the work is seemingly so quick we get pushed lower and lower prices- the technical knowledge is all in the machines now and I have lately come accross people who have been taught the basics of how to point and press the machine without actually understanding the surveying background fully. Result Garbage in - Garbage out - Everything now also being price and time oriented results in quick in and out - thus little care - I myself have been in survey for over 20 years and bot in the legal and design/topographic sides. I am saddened in the deterioration of standards as well as lessening of professional status in this and related fields- automation has its plus points but it has been trivialised by the end users thus the results - It will need a rethink of how and why we do things- My usual question is what is the survey for and thus what is important for the design etc- The person giving the survey brief should actually be able to explain what is needed - the best jobs usually are when the engineer/ designer can point out what he needs- the survey accuracy and methods can then be done to the degree of accuracy and detail commensurate with the design requirements. This chasing money / time is a form of greed which results in negative results sadly often in costly mistakes.But if briefed properly the surveyor should be able to do the job cost effectivily.

 

[pmkPE]

I too started out in surveying as a chainman on a four man survey party! Next step up was as a rodman; then instrumentman then partychief. The firm I now work for had as one of its principals a registered land surveyor who was also a professional engineer. I have taken my state's Land-Surveyor-In-Training exam and passed but I am not permitted to take the final exam to obtain my registration because "I have not worked for four years under the direct supervision, in the field, of a registered land surveyor setting property corners". This was told to me by a member of my state's Board of Registration (who happened to be a direct competitor of my firm). I asked him if the general public had benifited from no longer allowing civil engineers to survey, his response was "I don't know".

At my firm we pride ourselves in the level of detail and accuracy in our surveys (nor only civil but also structural/mechanical and electrical). In fact our survey team is the same personnel that reduces the notes and develops the exsiting site plan(s). But I also know that we are not "competitive" with other firms in pricing. I have just reviewed plans prepared by a firm that its principle in charge used to work for the government agency that we attempt to provide our services to. The plans that they created for a new sanitary sewer line were of an area that we had surveyed over the past ten years for an adjacent industrial facility and they did not show the existing water and gas lines that were within a few feet of where their proposed sewer line was to be built. My guess is that their price was "right" for the job in question and that their principal, having worked for the same department that hired their firm, was completely satisfied with the level of detail. (It also probably helps that the offering firm's office is directly overhead of the utilities office as well as the principal's former manager, in the same building).

All I know is that the survey can be the most important aspect of the job. If you do not have accurate knowledge of the existing conditions our designs would lead to major headaches during construction. When we do a survey, (engineering/topographic as we no longer have in-house registered land surveyors) I am confident about our decisions during design. There is only one or two surveyors in my area that I ask to work with us (and by no means are they the least expensive); the others do as stated by others above - they do not go out into the field AND they subcontract their drafting and deed search out to others that I would not even qualify as technicians. In fact they usually end up using our survey data points and create their plats for boundary surveys from them.

I do civil and structural engineering projects and what I learned from my old time mentors in surveying I still adhere to and expect the same from my staff.

 

[mjmellone]

Having worked in the field for 25 years I was lucky enough to learn from the old guys!
My experience has been mostly in the construction end of surveying - something a lot of land surveyors don't consider surveying, however, having worked both construction and land surveying I can tell you that the level of accuracy and attention to detail necessary in construction layout is much greater than that required these days in land surveying. The biggest problem I've seen with the younger people in both businesses is the reliance on technology - total stations, data collectors, etc.. Most of the newer Party Chiefs I've encountered haven't a clue what to do once the batteries are dead. They don't carry field books to record anything in, almost NEVER take their level out of the case if they even have one, have no idea how to run a level loop or run and adjust a traverse. They are simply technicians that have been doing it about a month longer than the guy behind the instrument. Nobody measures anything manually anymore.
When I have worked for land surveyors or consulting engineers I have always managed to wow them with little things like doing sketches in a field book showing where
shots that are recorded in the data collector were taken, etc.. Simple task - takes five minutes. I was astounded at one engineering company I worked for being sent to several small construction sites to do layout- they didn't want me to do any comps! This policy was a collosal waste of time for the customer since more often than not they would want some additional layout that I could have computed on the spot. I showed them the error of their ways and they let me do my job!
Unfortunately the new technology is a blessing and a curse (without proper training).(soapbox)